DM-MP-Harbinger

[MortalPlague]

Download (http://www.unrealplayground.com/download.php?mapid=1727)

Further south, the arctic regions of the planet Pheverynn eventually come to a stop. There can be found the industrial complex known by day as the Turbo Water Filtration Plant. By night, there is only one name for this place.... Harbinger.

This map has a different sort of gameplay than a regular DM map. Harbinger is dominated by a number of definitive control points. Firstly, the only health present on the map are a pair of kegs, which forms a triangle with the other, a flak cannon and shield, which serves more as a point where a disadvantaged player can get back into the game. The final point is the lightning gun and double damage up top, to offset the advantage of the kegs.

Control the points, maintain the sparse ammo, and you will dominate. If not, you will find yourself short on life.

[MortalPlague]

Here is one of the kegs, the one closer to the biorifle. This control point is easier to maintain ammo at, but only with the weaker weapons.

[MortalPlague]

This is the ceiling of the room with the other keg. I hope Gui would agree that this, at least is NOT a desperately flat ceiling. :D

[Scourgem]

You know... it seems like every time I click refresh, you've released a new map. :p

I've downloaded it - will take a look at it tomorrow morning (it's 2 AM round these parts).

[MortalPlague]

Who told you I had my map generator hooked up to your browser's refresh button? :p

Yeah, the whole idea is I'm not inactive during my beta periods (I'll be starting work on learning some Maya, actually, for my next one!). Raskada][ was already being made before Frosty was released, and so on so forth. :) I guess I'm just prolific.

Hope you like this one. Plenty of flak opportunities here. :evil:

[-=JUDGE=-]

Mortal, you are a mapping demon!!

Don't know where you find all the time to create maps.. but I wish I could too :)

Seems like I only have time to work on one map at a time.. and it's slow go.

ANYWAY... I will check this one out.

[MortalPlague]

I steal them.









No, just kidding... :p I have way too much time on my hands, but so long as the UT community benefits, I doubt anyone's going to complain :D

[blito3]

your on a roll.....wait till u hit the wall....LOL
way to go MP..on the mapping spree...if i had lots of time....

[Lord_Simeon]

way to go MP..on the mapping spree...

wow, your pumping them out.
Sounds good though, and looks sweet.

Keep it up, man.

[Scourgem]

Warning: Dissection of innocent map impending. :evil:

No, not really. My impression of this one is... hm... pretty much the same as that of your other maps. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Let's see...

The flow is as I expected: Old skool. Clean. Plenty of room to jump around like a (flak) monkey. It works, and works well. Hm.. could perhaps use a bit more z - take a huge, flat floor and subtract a depression in the middle of it, for example - instant z.

The graphics are ... let's just call them adequate. :p They work too, but look somewhat boring - industrial theme and all. Could use some more trim here and there, and maybe a bit of variation in textures. Well - at least the roof in the keg room isn't desperately flat. :D I like the idea of using "transparent" floors (ie gratings) on the upper level - you ought to add more of those.

Weapon placement is mkay. I would probably replace the goop with a link gun, but that's a matter of taste. The flak / lightning-gun-on-a-keybind combo completely dominates in here. Needless to say, I like that.

Hm, what else... yes, you've used some strange wood textures on the slopes. Should probably get rid of them, they look kinda strange amidst all the metal & concrete. You could also add a few more lights - there are some areas of the map that are pretty much unlit - near the amp, for instance. Just walk through the map on rmode 7, you can't miss the dark spots. Finally, you could make the theme seem more "alive" by adding some particle systems (electricity, steam and whatnot) and a bit of sound.

Well... I think that's enough ranting for now.

[MortalPlague]

How could I have forgotten particle systems? Sheesh....I guess I just forgot. Oh well, -- Wait, sudden inspiration just struck! I know how to fix up the layout to be even better, have some Z-axis, and to do some cool stuff! But as for replacing the goo gun with the link gun, I won't do it. The goo is in here intentionally. I think it's a good gun for this because it can really wreak havoc while firing at an opponent higher than you are, and is also good for laying down "minefields", and on a map with control points, minefields can be very useful.

And I know, I have problems with static meshes... :p I'll put some more in. And the ramps are as good as fixed.

Glad there isn't too little ammo, I really tried to walk the line there... :)

[-=JUDGE=-]

I like a few things about this map.. but I am not too fond of the HUGE rooms.

I loaded about 4 bots in there.. and was still looking for a fight.

As for the domination of the map through item control.. I really did not experience that .. because it takes quite some time to get from room to room due to scale.

Plenty of fighting room tho' and its not that easy to spam someone to death.. because there is lots of room to dodge. So accuracy is needed.

Some of the textures are a bit funky as scourgem pointed out.

Not sure what to suggest for changes.. the rooms just feel a bit big for no obvious reason.

Will be watching for changes.

[Blitz]

I played it with the default bot count, and I thought the map was just the right size for the number of bots. I didn't have too much trouble finding weapons or ammo, but I see the advantage of staying near the health packs, and other pickups. Weapon placement seemed fine as well.

I didn't see any rooms that stood out as being too big, and the larger rooms had metal pillars and such that broke them up nicely. Z potential was there, with upper levels looking over the lower ones. I agree with previous comments about textures and lighting. I have nothing against dim corners, but don't really like completely dark corners.

FPS was great, and gameplay was nice. The theme could use a little support, in addition to sounds and particles, a water filtration plant should probably have some water somewhere. ;) Or at least some pumps, or something that shows input/output.

Nice job.

[MortalPlague]

Still working on fixing it up here. The water filtration plant idea was really something tacked on so that I didn't have to say "Liandri bought this generic industrial facility..." lol! Anyways, I'm adding z-axis (got some good ideas for it) and I'm gonna add emitters and statics too. Here goes!

[-=JUDGE=-]

Hey .. I wanted to post again about this map.

My first comments seemed a little harsh after looking at them again.

So what I mean to say is that I guess I prefer tighter fighting areas. Of course not so tight that you cant move or dodge :) , but enough so that the action is constant and intense.

This is a solid start to a good map .. and I am sure it will be excellent when you are done with it.

[Blitz]

I just had another thought on this. You might try setting up Defense Points (UnrealScriptedSequence) to encourage the bots to play more to your "control point" idea. That might help you achieve the gameplay you are looking for.

[MortalPlague]

I don't suppose you could elaborate on how defense points work? Considering your explanation of jumpspots on DM-Hardcore's beta, I'm guessing you know quite a bit about UnrealEd 3.0. :D

Myself, I couldn't set them up very well in Raskada][...

[Blitz]

I don't understand UnrealScriptedSequences nearly as well as I'd like to, but I can give you what I know. My understanding of them is you should be able to script bots to do all sorts of interesting things with these, but by default they are set up as defense points.

A defense point is basically a spot where you tell the bot to "stand here and wait for someone to fight". In CTF or BR games, the bots will look for these when they are set to "defend the base".

In deathmatch (and this part is guesswork), the bots would probably stop on them if they encountered them in the normal course of their wandering, and then would hold that spot for at least 3 seconds, and possibly until they need to get health/ammo/etc.

Here's how to set one up:

First (obviously) place one on your map where you want your bot to stand and defend. This is a directional actor, so make sure to rotate it in the top view, as this is where the bot will face.

Second, you'll want to set the appropriate properties. Here's what I know:


Leave the AIScript alone. I don't fully understand it myself, but the Epic maps that I spot checked all left these as default. It's basically a couple of commands to tell the bot to hold this spot for 3 seconds.
bSniping = <true | false> If you specifically want the bots to snipe, set this to true. False means they won't be forced to snipe, but may do so anyway according to their normal AI.
SnipingVolumeTag = <name> If you want the bots to snipe a specific area of the map, place a sniping volume around that area, and set this property to the tag of that volume.
Priority = <0-255> If you have multiple defense points for a single game objective, this determines which points are most critical. Higher is more important. Epic maps all leave this at 0.
WeaponPreference = <weapon type> This will cause the bots to switch to this weapon when they take over the defense point (if possible). If a bot's favorite weapon matches this, the bot will tend to favor this defense point.
The other properties I'm not really sure of, but Epic maps never changed these from default.


As you can probably see, these are more useful for CTF or BR than for deathmatch. In a deathmatch level, these basically tell the bot "this is a good spot to wait for a victim". They were called "AmbushPoints" in UT.


Note, that to group defense points together, give them a common tag, such as "BlueBase".


If my guesses are correct as to deathmatch behavior, these may help your bots try to fight to stay near your designated "control points". For your map, the only properties I would set would be the preferred weapon, and maybe set one point up for sniping (bSniping=true, WeaponPreference=Lightning Gun). Everything else should be fine with the default value.

Hope this helps.

[MortalPlague]

Very much, Blitz. I'll attempt to put them to use, and hope that things work well on the map. The next update should be around soon. :)

[MortalPlague]

There we go, finally got the map updated! It looks much better, a bit more z-axis than before, bots should be more tenacious, better sound effects, and finally, some emitters! Check it out here (http://www.unrealplayground.com/download.php?mapid=1709)! Or you can d/l it from the start of the thread.

Hope you find it a much more engaging level, both visually and combat-wise! :evil:

[Blitz]

I still really like it. Those defense points seemed to encourage the bots to hang out near the superhealth spawns a little more, at least in the one game I've played so far. Setting the preferred weapon to one that spawns nearby might help acheive a more strategic attack. One bot kept trying to nail me with the lightning gun when a rocket would have worked much better. Also, if you want them to hang out for more than three seconds, I think you can play around with the parameters to the "WAITFORTIMER" action under the AIScript properties of the UnrealScriptedSequence. I haven't tried changing it, so I don't know if this would make the bots unduly foolish.

The map looks great. On those ramps, they look better without the wood texture, but still look a little odd. I think maybe they're just too steep.

One other suggestion, and this is purly personal preference, but ever since CTF-Orbital2, I can't seem to go up a lift without trying a lift jump. You might be able to put a little ledge at the top of your shafts with something interesting to pick up.

Just a thought, otherwise I'll just keep bumping my head on the ceiling. :blah:

[MortalPlague]

lol :p

I think, with all the ammo concerns present, I might simply add a few boxes of ammo up there. The steep ramps are my fault, I should perhaps de-steepen them. I don't think it would be that hard... :rolleyes: Glad you liked the visual changes!

[Scourgem]

Those dark spots I mentioned... like the one near the amp, and stuff... they're still there. :moreconf:

The tunnel behind the keg isn't a bad idea, but there should be a little something to pick up in there... just so there's a reason to enter it in the first place.

The subtractions-in-the-middle-of-huge-flat-floors-with-grates-in-the-center are neat - I love details like that. If you made them a bit wider and deeper, they would contribute more to the gameplay (i.e. add more z).

The framerates are good... waaaaay too good - there's room for a lot more detail (hint: read the sig... the sig...) :D

[MortalPlague]

lol

I was intending to put a bit of ammo in that passage, but I just forgot to. :rolleyes: Well, something for next time. Probably some minigun rounds and a bit of bio ammo, and maybe adrenaline too.

I'll see about more details, but I think exceptionally good fps is a GOOD thing! That means that even lower-end systems can run a good looking map at a decent framerate!

Well, I'll see if anything needs static-ing. Wider floor pits would be good (although possibly tough) but I can see how that works...

[Blitz]

Originally posted by Scourgem
Those dark spots I mentioned... like the one near the amp, and stuff... they're still there. :moreconf:
I must have missed those dark spots this time around...was paying more attention to the bots.
Originally posted by Scourgem
The framerates are good... waaaaay too good - there's room for a lot more detail (hint: read the sig... the sig...) :D
Speaking as someone with an outdated PC, there's no such thing as too good when it comes to framerate.;)

[MortalPlague]

The new version's been uploaded! It rocks, got some awesome emitters going! Download here (http://www.unrealplayground.com/download.php?mapid=1718).

And lift jumping...is in :D

[Blitz]

It's still coming along nicely. I like the ledges for the lift jumps. I had quite some time getting up there, though. I think maybe because the lifts are too short (travel duration), and I have to walk on them backwards to face the ledge. Challenging, but not impossible. Might have been easier if the ledges were on the opposite wall.

A few other details and suggestions:

1. Odd appearance on the emitters...perhaps move it just above the mesh?

2. That corner is still a little dark...would be nice to be able to make out the walls at least a little bit. (Not that I want to spark another discussion of lighting levels). Also, you may have missed one of those wood textures.

3. Almost all the lights could use coronas, but particularly, those low red lights.

4. (no pic) Some ambient sounds on those floor grates might be nice, perhaps a rushing water sound to help your theme.

[Scourgem]

The lighting is much, much better now.

- Ok, enough of all the positive stuff already. On to the flaming. :D

#1 - A minor issue: there are still wood textures on some of the slopes.

#2 - I think it's time to talk item placement. First of all, two kegs are way too much. Even one keg seems way too much, in fact, but removing both of them would ruin your "triangle" concept. Anyway, you should probably remove one of the kegs, and place the shield there instead.

#3 - Where's the shock rifle?

#4 - A bit of trim here and there... and once again - the sig. :p

[MortalPlague]

Okay, the lighting is going to get much much better. I talked with Hourences, he had a look, and had a good number of suggestions. I've already started fooling around with the lighting, so it's going to be vastly improved in the near future.

Addressing the horizontal lines, that might be an idea to stick that above the grate. I'll give it a try.

The dark corner I just forgot about, I'll light it. Same with the wood ramp there, I also forgot to make the ramp gentler...

Coronas: see top.

Ambient sounds are a good idea, I'll find something to use for it.

On Item Placement:
I don't think 2 kegs are too much, considering that there is no other source of health on the map. I'll consider the super shield though, because that would make it more advantageous to go round to all three "points". (199 health, 150 shields)

Shock Rifle? No. The level is too open. The player with the shock rifle would dominate the map if they were even moderately good with combo-ing. It would promote a lot of shock-ho'ing, and I don't want that.

And of course, trim. It's tough to find trim that fits this theme, but I'll try. I'll put some on there before I get another update out.

[MortalPlague]

Well, I updated. Merry Christmas (only 3 1/2 more hours here!) I tried moving the emitter up, but it ruined the effect of the whole thing...so I left it. The lighting has received the biggest improvement, as have the static meshes.

Have a happy holiday fragging on Harbinger (hopefully :p )

Download (http://www.unrealplayground.com/download.php?mapid=1727)

[Unicorn]

I don't know what you think, but I get very frustrated when I run backwards to defend myself and all of a sudden I get stuck... on a Static. Grrrrr. Static are very nice and add the details that BSP can't offer, but... Static should NEVER ruin gameplay and the flow which they DO in several of the original maps that come with UT2003. Therefore I suggest that you add collisionbarriers around all staticmeshes that you can think of that might cause trouble in gameplay.

Here is an example - picture:

[MortalPlague]

Unicorn...will do. I had done that originally, but when I realized that you couldn't go some places you ought to have been able to, I took em out. I was going to put them in with a bit more detail... (i.e. around each pillar individually) I'll look into that for sure, likely for the final version more than anything else.

[punkamatic]

Ok, im starting to get fed up with this "Anti-flow" chat. "I Got stuck on the wall!" BOO HOO!! Its called REALITY!!! When you are walking down the hall do you magically not get stuck in corners? No, you hit that object, and get hung up for a second. The problem is not with flow. Its with the general folk who want it easy and smooth. Life isnt easy and smooth. Deal with it.

[Unicorn]

And this is called UNREAL Tournament 2003. It's ALL about FLOW and Gameplay IMO. If you think that It's nice to bump in to everything, OK, thats fine with me. Staticmeshes also decreases FPS if you bump into them, this is another thing that is vital to remember. IMO UT flows WAAAAY much better than its sequel UT2003 just because it's simple and clean.

[HortonsWho]

Yeah--- it isn't reality--- it's about gameplay.

[Scourgem]

Originally posted by punkamatic
Ok, im starting to get fed up with this "Anti-flow" chat. "I Got stuck on the wall!" BOO HOO!! Its called REALITY!!! When you are walking down the hall do you magically not get stuck in corners? No, you hit that object, and get hung up for a second. The problem is not with flow. Its with the general folk who want it easy and smooth. Life isnt easy and smooth. Deal with it.

Blocking volumes can do a lot to improve the flow in a map. I wish I had realized this when I released my first 2k3 map. Take a look at a map like Gui's DM-Hardcore... that's a perfect example of how to use blocking volumes. You don't really notice them unless you're specifically looking for them - but you don't get stuck on stuff either.

[MortalPlague]

I might be going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing since Scourgem's run out of things to complain about that the map itself is fine? :D Other than the blocking volumes of course, I guess this one might be ready for a release...

[Scourgem]

Originally posted by MortalPlague
I might be going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing since Scourgem's run out of things to complain about that the map itself is fine? :D

:D

Well, actually... I still think there should be a Shock Rifle in it, I mean... if two kegs aren't too much, a single wee little tiny diminutive petite insignificant negligible itsy-bitsy Shock Rifle certainly isn't either. I'm really starting to like the new shock rifle, you see... it complements the Flak Cannon in so many ways. :P

Apart from that, the map still looks very dark on my screen... but a bit of gamma bumping can fix that. Oh, and there's still plenty of room for additional trim. :p

[Squirrelinabox]

games do not have to be realistic people. if a game wants to go for a more "realistic" approach, fine, i will just refuse to play it.

as for getting snagged and such, uh, using "realism" as a defense is just plain ignorant. you play to have fun, maps should encourage fun, to do this they need to have good gameplay, gameplay is many things, flow being on of the largest parts of gameplay should be a top priority in a map.

getting snagged ruins flow, thus ruins gameplay, thus ruins fun.

[Squirrelinabox]

oh, and if you want realism, should all the players slow down after so much time because they would get tired? shall we make ut2k3 a tom clancy game and not let people respawn because they are dead? shall we eliminate the translocator, the shock rfle, the lightning gun, and others because those aren't realistic?

oh wait, some of us have fun playing unrealistic games... hmm... go figure.

[phalanx]

yeah games where u get shot once and ur dead and not respawn soon gets dedious y do u think most games have health bars and huge weapons
and woulden't u have to have recoils???? fire a deemer get blasted into a wall at high speed erm doesn't sound that good but a few realistic levels r nice to play on
my £0.02

[MortalPlague]

I completely agree with that. There's a reason why we're all playing Unreal. :rolleyes:

And no, this level won't have a shock rifle. :p And I'd like to know where you're thinking there should be more trim cause I've got in as much trim as I care to add.

[Scourgem]

Originally posted by MortalPlague

And no, this level won't have a shock rifle.

:´(
Originally posted by MortalPlague

And I'd like to know where you're thinking there should be more trim cause I've got in as much trim as I care to add.

You want screens? You got screens.

*wields his UT2k3 CD as a punch dagger*

Be right back.

[Scourgem]

'Ere we go - the first 4 screens show places where you could add a bit of trim. There are a couple of other spots as well, but I was too lazy to take screenies of them all.

The fifth screenie has nothing to do with the trim.. it just shows a detail that has bothered me since the first release. I know it's nitpicking, but I can't live with that mesh. :rolleyes:

... You thought I had no more to complain about, huh? :p

[phalanx]

jeez your worse then SIAB:eek:

[Scourgem]

Originally posted by phalanx
jeez your worse then SIAB:eek:

Yeah... I'm like, his somewhat less evil twin. :rolleyes:

Complaining is what beta-testing is all about, y'know. ;)

[MortalPlague]

lol

Scourgem, that's a girder. Just a beam above a pipe. Sort of a little detail to put all over the place. And as for the trim thing, well, those areas DO have textural trim. I'm not sure what I would do for static mesh trim, but it would probably unnecessarily drag framerates down.

*shrug*

[Blitz]

I'll have to second MP on that one. Trim would be nicer visually, but I'd rather have the FPS than the trim, given the choice. Haven't had a chance to try the latest map....just got back to town. Will try it later tonight.

[Scourgem]

Allright - I will just shut up now.

[Blitz]

Originally posted by Scourgem
Allright - I will just shut up now.
No need for that, I find your comments very useful. :)

As for the latest version....I think it's looking pretty good. Biggest complaint is there are still some areas that are too dark, though some previous spots were fixed.

Suggestions on blocking out the meshes better sound good to me. Anything that improves the flow is a good thing, in my mind. Flow is still pretty good without it, and I really didn't notice myself getting tripped up much.

Too bad about those emitters. Perhaps smaller, faster particals would work better than what you have there...?

Finally, nice sound work!

[MortalPlague]

I agree with you, Scourgem's comments have been very helpful in this beta. If you need to be told to shut up, and get compared to SIAB, you're doing a good job as a beta tester... :p

As for the emitters, I don't think faster emitters would have the desired effect. I'm just going to leave it the way it is. Collision hulls have already been added in a few places, I'm going to make minor brightness adjustments, and the next version is going to be the release.

Thank you all for the beta feedback, you've made it a much better map. Couldn't have done it without you! :rockon:

<Update>
Thought I'd tack the final download link on the end of the post right here (http://www.unrealplayground.com/download.php?mapid=1741).

[-=JUDGE=-]

Mortal,

Tried out your map again.. and here are a couple of thoughts.

The map seems quite dark to me. Not sure what vid settings you design with .. but the map was pretty dark in most places and very dark in others. I was looking for my night vision goggles a couple of times.

I was getting tripped up on some of the statics .. but it is prolly cause I don;t know the map that well.. maybe some tube like blocking volumes on middle of the floor pillars might help that a bit.

The game play seemed to be better now, but a couple of places the bots would just sit there.. and not even see me it seems.

Other than these observations.. the map is good.

[DanG]

Pic 1 could really benefit from projectors