Finally building a new machine, need some advice.

[3DTexturizer]

Okeydokey, finally started getting a shopping list together.

Just wanted to pick the brains of some members here with more know how than I.
I already scoured the web for reviews of my initial picks, but I dont always trust web reviews.

So here it is:

Case: I already have a Cooler Master cavalier case, I havent seen any new cases that are my style.
So I will be using old one.

Motherboard: EVGA nforce 780i SLI FTW Motherboard A1 Version
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3983992&CatId=2014

PSU: Cooler Master Real Power 850watt
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2668642&CatId=2534

Video Card: XFX GeForce 9800 GT - 512MB I still cant believe this card is only $100!!!
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4209965&CatId=3670

Ram: Crucial Ballistix 4096MB I will be getting Vista 64 bit as well so I can utilize 8 gigs of the stuff.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4089566&CatId=2261

OS: Vista Home 64 bit

Hard Drive: Open to suggestions

Anyone see anything incompatible? And its less than a $1,000!

Thanks and cheers!

[JoystickMonkey]

Initial thoughts:

What processor are you using?

That mobo looks expensive. If you dropped the SLI you could probably save $50~$100

That RAM is DDR2 800. Try going for 1066. Get min specs on processor, mobo and RAM of 1066. Higher speed RAM usually doesn't cost much more, if any.

For PSU, I like modular cables. Look for good reviews and hardware analysis for these, and especially see what is said when the system is tested under load and not under load. Silence is another factor to consider.

For the graphics card, I'm not too up on the most recent developments. I know that the 9800GTs overheat pretty easily, and have experienced that myself with glitchy graphics after extended play. It's quite possible that another card that gives equal performance at lower temperatures is out by now.

Hope that's helpful, and good luck!

[3DTexturizer]

Heya Monkey!

I already have a Dual Core Pentium D 3.6 chip/heatsink

OK, per your suggestions-

Memory: Corsair XMS2 TWIN2X 4096MB PC8500 Memory - DDR2 1066MHz Dual Channel (2x2048) CL7
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4352320&CatId=2261

Video Card: EVGA GeForce 9800 GTX Video Card - 512MB
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3738445&csid=ITD&body=MAIN

[overrandom]

Could you tell me the average price for your current configuration? I will be in the market for a new PC myself in a few months.

EDIT: What? That's less than $1000?

[Creeper]

Oh dear heavens.. ditch the Pentium D! Go Core 2 Duo or Core 2 Quad, and cut corners eslewhere if needed. Also save a bunch of money by getting a 650 watt PSU .. no need to overkill that far. Without running SLI it's next to impossible to break 400 watts at full load.

Last and most important.. what are you planning to use it for?

[JoystickMonkey]

Oh dear heavens.. ditch the Pentium D! Go Core 2 Duo or Core 2 Quad, and cut corners eslewhere if needed. Also save a bunch of money by getting a 650 watt PSU .. no need to overkill that far. Without running SLI it's next to impossible to break 400 watts at full load.

Last and most important.. what are you planning to use it for?

Yes, go for a cheaper mobo and cheaper PSU.

Also, remember to shop around. I split my order between newegg and amazon and saved about $40.

You should be able to find something non-sli for around $100
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139005
I got this (I believe) and it's very quiet. Corsair products get very good reviews.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115206
you can get yourself one of these with the savings. :)

[Valis]

CPU:
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037) - $169.99

Very few apps or games will fully utilize a Core2Quad Q9650 enough to justify it being roughly twice the cost (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115130). Getting the Core2 Duo @ 3Ghz will give oodles of performance for now, and you can upgrade to a quadcore this winter (or even next year) when the i7 rolls out a full line (ie, more than just a few top models) and squashes prices on older socket 775 cpu's.


CPU HSF (heatsink+fan):
ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 7 Pro 92mm CPU Cooler (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835186134) - $36.99
Highly recommend this cpu cooler. Used it on both an E8400 and a Q9650, and it gives much quieter performance with better cooling than stock or many other aftermarket options. Note that it's a 4-pin (PWM) fan, which means that you CAN NOT use 3-pin case fans on your motherboard at the same time and get BIOS control over the CPU fan (which you WANT). That means you'll want to make sure you have some way to do speed control over your case fans that are 3-pin (either a baybus fan controller or fans that have their own 3-way switches, etc). I cannot recommend using the BIOS control over your CPU fan enough!


GPU:
The framerate differences between an 8800GT/9800GT (same card) and a 9800GTX are going to be minimal if you game at any res other than 1920x1200. If your LCD is 1440x900 or 1680x1050 (or etc) native res a 9800GT/8800GT will serve you fine. The ATI 3850 is a MUCH better buy, but I personally abhor Ati's drivers (I *still* can't get DVD overlays & regular media-file overlays working at the same time on my laptop) so I won't really recommend them, just mention that price:performance ratio is in AtiAMD's favor atm.


RAM:
When buying Ram, make sure that your DDR2 comes with 1.8v parts. While the DDR2 spec allows for more (up to 2.1v or so I believe), purchasing parts in the aftermarket that are rated higher than 1.8v indicates that they are purchasing binned parts that failed 1.8v at the clockspeeds they're selling (requiring the overvolting to get them to work). These companies (Corsair, OCZ etc) do this and plan on a 40%+ return rate as part of their business model, but to you that means you have a 40% chance of having a memory related issue in the first 6 months.


You might also want to consider getting a new system drive, even if you have other drives to carry over to the new build. Current drives still aren't quite the level of performance as an SSD but a drive that's 1-2 years old *will* drag system performance down. *DO NOT ORDER DRIVES FROM NEWEGG*, it's the one thing they do NOT pack or ship properly. I use zipzoomfly.com or another good retailer that I trust...

[Valis]

When you build your system:

BEFORE installing any OS, run memtest86 overnight. I also recommend another 12 hours of prime95 or another cpu stress test, to insure that your cooling & motherboard are up to the stress. Both can be found on the Ultimate Boot CD (http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/) utilities disk.

If your new disc is the boot volume (ie, you installed to a new drive), you might be able to find a bootable DOS version of the disc tools and also run that prior to any install. If not, once your OS is installed & running I *Highly* recommend that you test any *new* harddrives using a tool directly from the drive maker.

These "burn-in tests" can help reveal hardware that is actually faulty from the manufacturer, some hardware can still fail in the first few weeks but NOT during initial burn-in. However initial burn-in will help accellerate this failure, which is actually helpful as it can increase chances of the failure occuring in the 30-day window most retailers have for doing direct swap of hardware in an RMA.

---------

I prefer AHCI+ncq for multitasking with my SATA HD's (helps smooth out multiple accesses to the same drive/controller port). If you're just surfing the web & playing games you'll actually get better performance from Legacy IDE mode, but you may want to give AHCI a shot:

If you're using Vista you'll need an install disc that has Vista Sp1, just set AHCI mode to on in the bios (Raid off) before starting install, and it will detect it properly with an MS provided driver.

With WinXP-32 or pre-sp1 Vista install disc, just install with legacy IDE mode enabled, and once the system is stable find the onboard IDE controller, right click & "update drive", choose your own etc etc and navigate to the AHCI drivers on your cd/harddrive/etc. Reboot & change BIOS setting to AHCI+NCQ (RAID off) and the OS should fire up fine. If it hangs or you get a bsod you didn't choose the right driver. Just reboot again, toggle to legacy IDE mode and windows will redetect the driver for that on boot, causing yet another reboot (to get the driver active) at which point you can try the change again (or not).

Ignore all that if you're doing RAID.

[Creeper]

Not only do I fully agree with Valis's recommendations, but I actually got an E8400 and 8800GT along with 4GB of 1.8v RAM about this time last year. There is faster stuff now, particularly for the vid card, but not for anywhere near the price. And .. it's fast.

I can't comment on the CPU cooler because I water cool, but when I was using air, I was a big fan (pun intended) of the ZALMAN CNPS7000B-ALCU (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118112) or, when there was room for it, the rather large (ie .. check your mobo specs first) ZALMAN CNPS7700-CU 120mm (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118115)

[Lunarbunny]

I would have recommended a 4850 or two but that price for a 9800 is pretty unbeatable. Guess nVidia got tired of people like me (nVidia for 6 years jumping over to ATi for the 4000 series)

[SuperApe]

/me studies this thread carefully.

[JoystickMonkey]

If you're not particularly strapped for cash, then I'd go with Valis's processor info. If you're tight on the budget, you should go with the cheapest Core 2 Duo out there and then upgrade when you want a boost. In a few years, games might actually start taking full advantage of a quad core system, and they'll be 1/3 the price they are now.

[-=JUDGE=-]

I just build a machine a little bit ago.. here is what I bought:

Antec 1200 Case (very very nice)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129043

GeForce 9800 GTX+ (looks to be deactivated at this time.. sweet card)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130376

ZALMAN CNPS9700 LED 110mm 2 Ball CPU Cooler
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118019

G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (x2)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231098

ASUS RAMPAGE FORMULA LGA 775 Intel X48 ATX Intel Motherboard (yes I know you cant sli on this board but with the new Graphics cards they will be dual processor anyway.. sweet board)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131284

ASUS Black 20X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 8X DVD+R DL 20X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 14X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM 2MB Cache SATA 20X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135156

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Quad-Core Processor, 2.40 GHz, 8M L2 Cache, LGA 775
Purchased from amazon.. was cheaper

Western Digital WD6400AAKS WD Caviar SE16 SATA Internal Hard Drive, 640 GB, 3 Gb/s, 16 MB Cache, 7200 RPM
Purchased from amazon .. was cheaper

CORSAIR 750w TX Series 80 Plus Certified Power Supply
Purchased from amazon .. was cheaper.

Nothing slows this computer down and I have thrown everything at it. Crysis on super high, tons of high res image editing, video editing / transcoding, 3d rendering.. cpu is always chillin and thinks it should take a nap no matter what I throw at it.

[Creeper]

Yes, there's a collosal debate that can be had over Dual core vs. Quad core. I think the short version imo is: If you need quad core.. you already know you need it, so get it. Otherwise, stick to dual until you know you need quad. :p

[JoystickMonkey]

Yes, there's a collosal debate that can be had over Dual core vs. Quad core. I think the short version imo is: If you need quad core.. you already know you need it, so get it. Otherwise, stick to dual until you know you need quad. :p

I don't really feel that there's much of a debate. A good deal of games that are coming out benefit only slightly from having 4 cores over 2 cores. You might be able to get more things on the screen, or handle physics better with less FPS impact during demanding explosions, but most games are geared toward being able to run on a 360, with three processing units.

The bottleneck is more in the video card, available memory, memory speed, and HD speed (for loading times). Two extra cores provides marginal performance compared to a better video card or extra RAM.

If you're going for bang per buck, go dual core. By the time games come out that really demand four cores, quad core processors will cost around $100.

[3DTexturizer]

Well...

So much info.

I havent played any games in about a year, because I'm still using an AGP card.
Most of what I've been doing is photo editing, and I have actually been looking at used Mac Pros, since that is what I use when I do freelance work for a local photographer. However I do not want to start a Mac Vs. PC debate in this thread.

It seems as there are too many components to choose from PC wise. And every stat has to be carefully weighed against the other.

I had chosen some of the more high end components because I wanted a machine that would not be limited later on down the road. I wanted to kinda be ahead of the curve, so that Im not having to upgrade in a year, maybe even two.

Right now, when I come home from shooting a wedding, I am transfering about 6-8 gigs of photos to my drive. When editing I'm running Adobe CS3 and Adobe Bridge, and it gets quite slow. My card starts to show banding when using two monitors, so I can only really keep the one hooked up.

So, Im not really pinching pennies with this build. I want to have too much horsepower, than just enough.

And maybe I can casually game again, or run UT3...


Thanks for the tips everyone, they are VERY helpful!

Cheers:beer:

[Angel_Mapper]

Everything seems like a good choice, except yeah, you definitely don't need the 850 watt power supply unless you plan on running two video cards sometime in the future. Even then it's overkill.

I would look for the 1GB version of the 9800GT if you can find one, too.

[3DTexturizer]

Thanks AM, I am also going to get one of those Samsungs that you've got.

[Creeper]

Photoshop is one of fairly few programs that greatly benefits from a Quad core. Which is why i said 4vs2 can be debated, because not everyone builds purely for gaming ;) Also, Photoshop CS4 can tap into your GPU power. See Here (http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewContent.do?externalId=kb404898) for more detail on that than you might want to know. For example, it can only use one GPU, so still no sense running SLI.

Also, assuming that your camera supports it, you might make a little budget room for a 1394b aka Firewire800 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815104224) add-in card. To my knowledge, non-Mac motherboards only come with 1394a (firewire 400), and that may make a difference during your data transfers.

[Valis]

My GTX260 gets a fair boost in Photoshop CS4, but the most interesting trick with it is really the rotation bit. It's nice when I'm using my Wacom due to the rotation & seamless hand tool accelleration, but I find I use my tablets a lot less these days than I did 10-12 years ago for some reason. Much of the UI code in PS is still not properly multithreaded, though most of the more useful plugins for photography are.

Unfortunately Photoshop CS4's 64bit version doesn't have a compatibility layer for older plugins (as 3.05 did for the move from 16 to 32bit) so you wind up running both versions side by side in CS4 (32bit & 64bit). Workflow is similar to the days of ImageReady if you've used that. Not a huge selling point for me, but using even Photoshop CS3 under a 64bit OS helps with really large files, as you can allocate a full 3GB to Photoshop without using command line switches that compromise the OS's paging. In fact Photoshop shows a larger gain in performance for me from more RAM than it does from more cores (but I've got 8 cores so it's well over the point of saturating memory bandwidth).

Lightroom is actually much more optimized for SMP across its toolset and even its UI. The speed advantages there are far greater in what you actually 'feel' while working, versus just speeding up some of the plugins and processing tools. Again Lightroom is a big winner with more ram.

In both cases I'd suggest 8GB of Ram. I actually still intend to bump this board to 16 or more GB (Xeon board with 8 slots). I use Superspeed's Ramdisk plus to allocate some of my 8GB system ram as a virtual disc that acts as Photoshop's primary swap. The improvement here won't be matched until SSD's come down in price and initial access times drop. Superspeed's Ramdisk is interesting because even with a 32bit OS it can use a NUMA capable board to map ram that's unavailable to the OS as a virtual disk, using boards that support NUMA. I've used it for several years as a result, you can find out more here:
http://www.superspeed.com/desktop/ramdisk.php

But yea I concur, if you're using this for photography & graphic design, spend the $330 on a quad without much concern. Web & gaming, skip it.

[Dorkorama]

This question is aimed squarely at Valis:
Do you find vector graphics ever push the system hard enough to justify above normal hardware specifications? While I don't have Illustrator (pricey and I'd only use the finer color definition) I have occasional stuttering with not-all-that intricate work in Corel Draw 12 on a 6+ year old system with 512 MB or RAM. I never noticed any issue on my tablet while it was working (:cry:) but I never really got to try much on it before the graphics developed issues.

[Valis]

Well I haven't used Corel in years, but I do recall one of the better points was its much lower overhead when working (ram & overall performance). However a 6 yr old machine with 512MB ram should be fairly easy to upgrade a tad. I'm guessing either a P4 or an AMD athlon in it, and perhaps DDR1? 2GB of ram and the smallest process cpu that will fit on it (ie, 65nm?) so that you can get acceptable clocks without a huge power & heat hit compared to what you're used to...

512MB ram just isn't enough imo, Even 1GB would do wonders (are you still using Win2k btw?)

[Dorkorama]

I doubt anything could help my micro ATX tower within a reasonable budget. The Front-Side Bus is 266 MHz, so I know it's DDR RAM in there. It's only a 1.2 GHz Athlon with a Ti 4200 (64 MB.) Frankly, the only thing I really want to save is the SB Live! Platinum for the full size DIN-5 MIDI, but I'd want to move down to 98 SE or Millennium to get one piece of software working fully, again. I just can't justify the cost, though. Maybe I should rework it with Linux and run a Virtual Machine?

There is one last thing for me try on the tablet; replacing the thermal compound on the graphics since it could have "dried out," though it looks plenty pliable. Overall, it was working perfectly as a desktop replacement.


Currently I'm waiting to see what the second generation of netbooks bring. What I'd want in one:


next-gen Atom, single or dual core
nVidia Ion and HDMI to use when at a desk (hopefully the graphics core can be "turned off" for portable use)
tablet touch-screen
at least 768 rows of display real estate

A good, keyboard with a joystick mouse ("nub" pointer) would be best, but I haven't seen one yet, but I think I'd be looking at around 10 inches for the display size.
Of course, Gigabyte also has an interesting MID (http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Notebook/Products_Spec.aspx?ProductID=2833) to release in the near future. Likely to be too pricey for the performance. :roleyes:

[3DTexturizer]

OK, I waded through the info given, took many suggestions as gospel.

Barely tops @ $1033.

Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037

CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V


EVGA 01G-P3-N880-AR GeForce 9800 GTX+ 1GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130429

GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3P LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128358

COOLER MASTER COSMOS 1000 RC-1000-KSN1-GP Black/ Silver Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119138

Crucial 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148164

Western Digital Caviar Black WD5001AALS 500GB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136320

[Creeper]

Lookin good. Only thing I'd mention is I assume you're getting 2 or more of the RAM sticks? (and dang that's cheap.. Hmmmmm) Also the case is kinda spendy imo for a case.. but it is an impressive one. You may consider the Lian-Li PC-7B (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112099) at $100 less, but if the Coolermaster is in the budget and you like it.. then do it. :)

[SuperApe]

/wants a clone of this computer