Mods for mappers...? [Archive]

TseTse

05-27-2002, 10:53 AM

Hi. I'm excited to find a scene for UT2k3 mappers! Let me first say a tidbit about myself. I am an old school gamer, and always a fan of UT. I spent most of last year mapping for Tribes2.

I like to stir debate and get things organized. With that said...

I have been tossing out a mod idea for UT2k3. It's real simple: a mod for and by level designers

Imagine something like the UT map "ProjectX"... but twice the size. Now, add 2 person jeeps and air transport vehicles which carry up to 4 people.

Imagine your team's CTF base poised on the edge of a massive ravine. Your enemies are on the other side of the ravine. There are bridges down the roads on both sides, allowing jeep assaults - but your enemies have control of the small bunkers at the bridge. There are two air-trams which slowly take folks across the ravine - your team has been unable to get folks safely across. There are also air transports available - your team is getting inside with ease, but they are not getting back safely with the flag. What's next? Maybe you grab a glider and head down to the bottom of the ravine - seek to hold the base down there with teleporter access to the base far behind enemy lines?

Imagine a mod which is full of unbelievable maps and lots of cool things which always fit the map's dynamics. Mappers will delight as this mod harnesses the core elements of UT2k3 and adds many new features and stuff for them to utilize. Players will love the new dynamics, new vehicles and quality maps.

The idea is to build a "mod" around really really cool optional enhancements for mappers, all which work well for large scale mapping.

I want to help take UT2k3 itself into the realm of T2, Planetside, Halo, etc.

I believe that EPIC/DE have similar plans, but why wait for them?

Here's some ideas i wrote up a while ago. All of it is just brainstorming to stir up interest and discussion:

http://www.geocities.com/zentsetse/UT2mod.htm

This mod concept is really a way for a bunch of mappers, programmers, and modelers to rally around each other... and to build a large pack of cool levels and new features.

THIS IS NOT a true "mod" in the sense of completely new gameplay.

I actually envision it being more about enhancements to the existing gameplay core elements, but in ways which expand the gameplay for large scale maps and neato ideas.

Not every great idea deserves a full mod. Not every great idea deserves to be a mutator.

Not every great idea works across all the maps on a server, as we all know.

SO, let's create a system for mappers... organized around a vision of larger, and well-balanced maps (although not limited to just that).

I envision the beta release having maybe 5-10 AWESOME maps and a whole set of initial cool features like I mention above:

- a couple limited vehicles
- a few cool new personal transport toys like gliders, jets and grapples
- a couple limited hud enhancements

ALL OF THESE WOULD BE map options.

Squirrelinabox

05-27-2002, 01:54 PM

Ok, here is my view of what your are proposing.... not enough quick action. First off it doesn't really seem like a mod at all, but you are basically proposing much larger maps and including vehicles. I am definately intrigued by vehicles, but by making the map large, it spreads out the action and making gameplay suffer. Take Ezmerhim for example. It really is a decent map, good flow/archi/gameplay except that it is way to friggin big. People don't want to take an hour traversing a map to get to the other side. Even with vehicles, it seems like it would still limit gameplay.

Chrysaor

05-27-2002, 05:48 PM

T2 fans are weird like that :p

TseTse

05-27-2002, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Squirrelinabox
Ok, here is my view of what your are proposing.... not enough quick action. First off it doesn't really seem like a mod at all, but you are basically proposing much larger maps and including vehicles. I am definately intrigued by vehicles, but by making the map large, it spreads out the action and making gameplay suffer. Take Ezmerhim for example. It really is a decent map, good flow/archi/gameplay except that it is way to friggin big. People don't want to take an hour traversing a map to get to the other side. Even with vehicles, it seems like it would still limit gameplay.

In a nut shell, you are wrong. There are tons of maps and GAMES which prove this isn't as black/white as that.

There ARE mapping issues in terms of the spread of PACE of action, but the tempo might stay the same as a normal sized CTF map.

It's about balance and organizing the tempo. That's why I think vehicles would be primarily used for transport (including large posse transport).

If you think "gameplay" implies merely a constant DM frag fest, then sure... bigger means "bad."

Tribes2 is extremely intense when maps are well balanced, as intense as any UT game i've witnessed. Same with large scale wolfenstein (which doesn't even have the splash damage weapons).

But the whole idea of this "mod" is to build strong options which support larger maps (and I ain't talking silly huge). These would be things which would make normal sized maps and gameplay a bit TOO fast.

They would be creative things like gliders which might fit extremely well on a couple maps. They would be new hud enhancements which might be appropriate on larger maps, to identify targets and the flag (like T2, which keeps tempo moving at the larger scales).

Anyways, not something i really care to argue lol.

If folks want to jump in, say so. If you have ideas, toss em out there! I just don't have the energy to debate whether large scale gameplay is fun... because that's moot.

Squirrelinabox

05-27-2002, 09:07 PM

"I just don't have the energy to debate whether large scale gameplay is fun... because that's moot."

How is it moot? The most important factor for your "mod" is whether or not supporting larger maps will increase or decrease gameplay. From my experience with UT, it will seriously hinder the fun factor.

Granted, I haven't played many UT maps that have vehicles, though the transloc moves you pretty damn fast. The vehicles you propose would have to move rediculously fast to compensate for transloc movement (though the new transloc is limited). If you have played any large maps for UT you should have noticed the majority of people dislike the largeness. GUI makes some great looking maps, but many are just WAY TO LARGE. If they were scaled down they would be much more appealing to the average UT player.

I understand you are planning the gamepay to revolve around utilizing these vehicles as a team and controlling the various points on the map. The fact is people do not work together enough as a team for these kind of maps. Lo Ping released Ring Of Fire, a map he claimed should emphasize a team holding various locations like the middle bridgeway, but the truth is, people can't, and shouldn't rely soley on teamwork.

Do I sound like a selfish bastard? Probably. But if you have seen me in a game you would know I play for the team, not for myself. As much as I play for the team, I can't rely on them to be there when I need them. But back to large maps. People play UT for action more than for exploring. Large maps have way too much exploring and traveling and less combat. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but as a whole, the large maps don't play well.

MadMikey

05-27-2002, 09:14 PM

*** DISCLAIMER ***
The opinions expressed in this thread do not necessarily represent the opinions of UnrealPlayground, it's staff, their immediate family members or their pets.

Geez, Squirrel, lighten up!!!!! :D

And welcome to the Playground, TseTse!!

Squirrelinabox

05-27-2002, 09:16 PM

Ok, as I said your plan definately has some challenges to get past. Large maps generally play poorly. However there are ways to make the large maps more fun. Some suggestions for the large maps and mod you speak of:

-Implement spawn point control points like some Wolfenstein 3d maps have. For example, if you have a bridge make bunkers on either side that have control points. If a team takes a control point their team will then spawn there, thus spawning them closer to the enemy base. You would have to implement a bunch more features such as allowing defenders to spawn back at their base and offense to spawn as close to enemy base as possible.

-Teleporters. As much as I hate teleporters, they do have their moments. If you have a lot of NON-CONFUSING teleporters in a large map they can make traversal of the map much quicker. One problem with using teleporters like this is that the need for the vehicles would be limited. However, perhaps make it so flag carriers can't use certain teleporters or have team designated teleporters... once again I am just throwing ideas out there.

-Objectives to do along the way. Similar to some Wolfenstein maps and some UT Assault maps which force players to destroy a wall or something, it may be a good idea to have some sort of objectives along the way ot each base. This will make the large maps a bit more eventful along the way to the enemy base. Even having some automatted turrets at certain points or a minefield or something would make the trip to each base important and fun.

I really don't know what you are working on, planning, so I am just throwing out ideas. If you ever do come up with something set in stone let me know so I can see what you're doing.

Freakish

05-28-2002, 12:42 AM

It sounds intriguing..with UT this would probably not work b/c the engine wouldn't gracefully handle the vehicles and all the extra complication..

but the gameplay enhancements of 2k3 might make this feasible..it sounds interesting to say the least and if it's fun (playing bigger maps without running out of action or things to do), then it could be very sweet.

Anyways..welcome to UP tsetse!

TseTse

05-28-2002, 09:51 AM

squirrel, seriously, go play some other games and more maps.

ironically, my biggest concern with the this "mod" is that EPIC/DE appear to be planning an expansion pack with similar stuff.

they explicitly said it's going to have vehicle code IN THE INITIAL RELEASE even, using the karma physics. u2k3 is going to expand into both large scale and more tighter sports dynamics.

why don't you go lecture THEM. or lecture Raven software (wolfenstein and quake4) on why their brand new official wolfenstein map should not have been designed for 40 players and be HUGE. the issue is moot.

you think planetside and star wars galaxies are going to fail?

anyways, yes, teleporters, transports, all kinds of things can help balance out larger maps. if you know ProjectX, i am talking about maps that size and maybe up to twice as big.

debating WHETHER larger scale gameplay is a moot issue because, my friend, there are entire FUN games like tribes2 which show this premise to be false (by the way, did i mention i map for tribes2?). i would rather brainstorm on what already works and how we can build mapper tools for fun gameplay.

obviously larger scale CTF would have special challenges in UT2k3. that's the point of this mod.

yes, it isn't a mod in the traditional sense. no, i don't have clear plans for it all because i expect it to be a collaborative.

it's really like a map pack with a bunch of cool features and toys, and then those things could be used in more maps.

however, if we can get a talented programmer who can make a viable objective-oriented gametype... then hey, why not!

IHopeToGod

05-28-2002, 10:41 AM

Since I've been known to make a large terrain based Outdoor map or two, let me just say I like large maps :) . The problem for UT was that most servers support 16 or less players, with the average server probably housing around 8 players. For games/servers which support large player loads, large maps can be fun. I'm sort of working on a mod myself quietly - Plan on doing all the work initially myself (to maintain quality control) when I have time :D. Its best to wait to see how they implement vehicles in Unreal Championship to see if they really work effectively, since if they make changes to the code later on for UT2k3 it might have an effect on the work u put into the mod already. My guess is that UT2 won't initially contain vehicles because Microsoft would be upset

;)

LOL! - I recognize your name from the Tribes2 page. Praying Mantis right - Now I know why u like large maps :p

Squirrelinabox

05-28-2002, 01:41 PM

Ok, Tse Tse, I see you don't like people disagreeing with you... oh well. I understand there are a billion games that have large maps and may play well for those that play them. The fact is, many people who don't like that style of play, play UT. I still don't really see what your mod is. Your mod seems to let mappers make maps? Hmmm...

Anyway, like I said for UT (not Tribes, not Wolfenstein) large maps tend to fail. IHopeToGodThatsMilk has made a few maps that would have played extremely well if they weren't too big. Domain is the one that comes to mind first... it is just too big. Heck he even has another map that is just the bases of that map which is really fun because it is smaller. If you want to change UT2k3 into Tribes2k3 then do it. Remember though that UT players probably play UT over Tribes because they like how UT plays more than Tribes (go figure).

Once again, I have no idea what you are exactly talking about. You said you want to create a mod that allows mappers to make larger scale maps? Mappers can already do this. If your mod is to just allow vehicles then so be it. I think vehicles will be cool on some smaller maps. Damn though man, don't get all defensive. You posted in the forum for ideas/suggestions. I gave my ideas both positive and negative. If you ask for help/suggestions and don't want any criticism then you are never going to progress.

TseTse

05-30-2002, 08:46 AM

First of all squirrel, I dont' really care what you think. I posted here, and got an obnoxious welcome from you which included you trying to limit creativity, brainstorming... and then dissing the concept of larger scale gameplay which is both disproven by reality including within UT (i've played large scale UT maps with lots of people and they don't fail). I have no problem disagreeing. Let's leave it at that... thanks. Find another thread to troll.

Originally posted by IHopeToGodThatsMilk
Since I've been known to make a large terrain based Outdoor map or two, let me just say I like large maps :) . The problem for UT was that most servers support 16 or less players, with the average server probably housing around 8 players. For games/servers which support large player loads, large maps can be fun. I'm sort of working on a mod myself quietly - Plan on doing all the work initially myself (to maintain quality control) when I have time :D. Its best to wait to see how they implement vehicles in Unreal Championship to see if they really work effectively, since if they make changes to the code later on for UT2k3 it might have an effect on the work u put into the mod already. My guess is that UT2 won't initially contain vehicles because Microsoft would be upset

;)

LOL! - I recognize your name from the Tribes2 page. Praying Mantis right - Now I know why u like large maps :p

Yes, I did a remake of Preying Mantis with Akira (who is a god, and now a professional Level Designer)... called Zen.

http://www.tribes2maps.com/cgi-bin/map_detail.cgi?id=2519

ANYWAYS< yah, large UT maps are mostly constrained by the base elements and server dimensions. IMO, this is an exciting prospect of UT2k3, with larger scale being more viable and more stable 32 person servers.

UC video rocks, because you can see one of the 1-person vehicles (looks like darth maul's little scooter thing).

Without a doubt, i think there's room for vehicle transports and a jeep.

But duh... it requires mappers who understand how to balance things for specific vehicles. Not everybody in the UT fan base wants much beyond small DM, but you know what?

They can go play q3a... :rolleyes:

Squirrelinabox

05-30-2002, 02:36 PM

Wow, before I ignore you for the rest of my life Tse Tse, let me remind you that you posted here for comments and critiques. I gave you mine. I can't believe you are that close minded to not take anything negative about your project. So when you say "First of all squirrel, I dont' really care what you think" you have shown your true colors. You don't know me, my background, what I have played or not played. I am just another gamer to you giving my opinions and skepticisms of your project, but you don't care to listen. I don't know why.

And how can you say you got an obnoxious welcome from me? All I said wast I said it sounded like what you are working on may limit the action. I gave my reasons why and pointed out an example or two. I also said how i was intrigued by the vehicles. Now I realize it isn't the largeness you are proposing but your stubborn ignorance that is going to limit the projects success. Now yes, I am being an ass, but you deserve it man.

I am now off to troll somewhere else.

IHopeToGod

05-31-2002, 08:16 PM

Glad to see Squirrel and TseTse are becoming good buddies :D .

If you can get vehicles to work successfully then you could have a very popular hit on your hands, if u manage to do it before a 100 other people do it. I think the UT mod Team Orbit or whatever has vehicles - not sure though, might want to take a look at that :)

Squirrelinabox

05-31-2002, 10:14 PM

Yeah I am thinking vehicles will pop up very quickly in UT2k3, especially since they are releasing the vehicle code. Hmm.. what does that mean exactly though? If they release "vehicle code" can somebody just make a vehicle model and do a little code reworking of the "vehicle code" to make it go with the vehicle model? If this is the case you would think they would release at least one finished vehicle to show it off?

Freakish

06-01-2002, 03:36 AM

Probably some vehicle class with plenty of functions already defined (get in, activate, operate, move..etc) so that people can easily make vehicles..just inherit from it and customize away.

TseTse

06-03-2002, 08:18 AM

ANYWAYS, anybody have maps that they think deserve careful attention in terms of making larger scale dynamics work?

This especially goes for UT, although I'd love to hear thoughts on applicable maps from other games (although Tribes doesnt really count, because Tribes revolves around jetpacks which is totally different physics).

I like maps like Twin Valley, Project X, Breathe, etc.

When I think of "large" maps, I think of maps maybe up to twice as big as those and using similar path/design concepts.

Lately, I am LOVING the wolfenstein map "tram."

As for the silly drama on this thread...

Originally posted by Squirrelinabox
Wow, before I ignore you for the rest of my life Tse Tse, let me remind you that you posted here for comments and critiques. I gave you mine. I can't believe you are that close minded to not take anything negative about your project.

*yawn*

Actually, I didn't take your comments as "criticism" of the ideas I was tossing out for discussion. I took them as just based on bad premises and knee-jerk forum troll negativity. You clearly hadn't read what I wrote because you basically made a point I had addressed already. That's why I responded as I did, and said I don't want to debate WHETHER vehicles & large scale can work and wanted to talk about the broader mod idea about HOW to make large scale work... (which was the whole point of the thread).

Yes, I think debating WHETHER vehicles & large scale are viable was a moot point...

You initially wrote...

Originally posted by Squirrelinabox
Ok, here is my view of what your are proposing.... not enough quick action. ...

I am definately intrigued by vehicles, but by making the map large, it spreads out the action and making gameplay suffer. ...

Even with vehicles, it seems like it would still limit gameplay.

I disagreed with you, although your concern about gameplay scale is EXACTLY the root of this whole thread and mod idea!

Apparently the people waiting in LINE on the 50-person servers for wolfenstein, tribes2, and other games would also disagree with you.

Um, realize that the thread is about HOW to make a "mod" which adds TOOLS for MAPPERS to SPEED UP ACTION for LARGE ScALE.

Your point was "it will be too slow" and "large scale can't basically be done." So, yes, I think you just missed the point (the thread was started BECAUSE of your stated concern, yet with the premise that we can make it work). Although perhaps we misread each other... :rolleyes:

(but like i said, i like to stir discussion... hehehehe)

Some snapshots from one of many games with effective FPS gaming at a larger scale.

http://www.tribes2maps.com/screenshots/2519-1.jpg

http://www.tribes2maps.com/screenshots/2509-1.jpg

Old pics from a map I am working on, which might end up for UT2k3 or a new Torque engine game I'm a dev for.

http://www.geocities.com/zentsetse/abydos.html

Idle Idol

06-03-2002, 10:06 AM

SIAB said:
I understand there are a billion games that have large maps and may play well for those that play them.

JeepBoy said:
You clearly hadn't read what I wrote because you basically made a point I had addressed already. That's why I responded as I did

THEN JeepBoy said:
Oe of many games with effective FPS gaming at a larger scale.

Whose not reading what here skippy? =)

anyhow, your both being obnoxious. end of story, heh.

Now, to the matter at hand. I tend to agree with SIAB here (not that i like to) if you want big, vehicle oriented, large scale game play...GO PLAY those games. why after market one? I don't care how well you design the "mods" or the maps, it will never run as smoothe as a game built from the ground up with that sort of play in mind. You'll have the rice-rocket of the large-scale FPS made. Now, that being said...you have some interesting ideas, you need to run with them in the UT2k3/UT world. NOT the tribes world, as again..this is not tribes/planetside. Have you PLAYED cairo? (team orbit mod) it plays like crap compared to say, tribes. Have you played any of the knock-off CS mods for ut? sorry to say, compared to CS they are crap. Now, CS was a mod...but it worked with a physics engine meant to be more true to real life that UT was. And, because of UTs basic design of being less believable, more fast paced/action oriented...they don't play as well.

But hey, do your project and see where it goes. It may very well work out fine, it's impossible to say definitively now. But, speaking from past experiances and personal opinon, i'd rather find a way to work vehicles into the UT2K3 world, NOT work UT2k3 into the vehicles world.

--Idle, waxin off philosophical like

FBMachine

06-03-2002, 02:55 PM

I think it could work if you're careful with how you design the maps. I think large scale maps have a cool feel that aren't in smaller maps, but they are tedious to get across, and the action is too spread out. If you keep all the areas of interest ( ie. flag bases, weapon drops/depots ) in tight areas, but you make the paths between them fairly long you can keep the tight action but with a large scale feel. You need to make the vehicles fast enough, so that you get across those roads/paths as fast as you would running or translocating in a smaller map. I think it could actually make the maps even more intense rather then less if the vehicle are fast enough, and they have mounted weaponry, so you can try to pick off the flag carrier from the back of the vehicle. Sure that isn't something UT players are used to, but not all change is bad, so it's worth at least experimenting with to see if it can be fun.
Dan

FBMachine

06-03-2002, 02:58 PM

I forgot to mention you have to keep the paths/roads a fairly close off course otherwise you'll start to get that lost in the hills Tribes feel.
Dan

Sinnical

06-19-2002, 11:38 PM

i only read the first 2 or 3 posts so i dunno how far the conversation has come. basically i think it isnt that great an idea to make larger scale maps and vehicles for UT or ut2k3. im sure some people would find it fun, but it just isn't what UT is. As much as some people might like to think, UT has almost no strategy. only action. if people want big strategic environments and vehicles they will play tribes 2.

Squirrelinabox

06-20-2002, 02:06 AM

Like I said in some of the posts in this thread, I agree that large scale isn't what UT is, though vehicles may find a place... don't know.

Personally, I am thinking up a mod idea that may be more fun if vehicles are added, though relying on vehicles probably won't work :)

TseTse

06-29-2002, 01:46 PM

Wow, I forgot about this thread (go figure).

As for those who are taking knee-jerk "vehicles can't be in unreal" comments, please look at UChampionship. Then note that UT2k3 will ship with vehicle/code in it, with rumors of large scale expanion pack coming this winter. Then dig around the web for the term "unreal warfare."

Like I think I said in the initial outreach post, I don't want to DEBATE large scale mapping and vehicles per se, but do want to find people who want to figure out HOW to do it well within an essentially "UT" experience.

If you think that idea is crazy, don't yell at me... yell at EPIC...

Anyways, a slightly more constructive and less inflamatory discussion is going on at

http://www.ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180515

I've got a lot of email signs of interest, from modelers through experience coders. Would like to find mappers with modeling knowledge, who really like this concept and want to work in teams to make exemplary maps.

peace

Squirrelinabox

06-29-2002, 02:17 PM

Grr... I just don't like your attitude Tse Tse. You are posting to ask people to agree with you 100%. You don't want suggestions that say something of your "idea" (i put it in quote because your "mod" is nothing more than saying you want to make mappers be able to build bigger maps and to add vehicles and like you said epic is already doing this). Many of us have said larger maps tend to fail for UT. Maybe not for Tribes, maybe not for other games, but for UT they tend to fail. I guess I said I wasn't going to debate this any more either, but your ignorance is too much to pass up on.

IHopeToGod

06-29-2002, 03:59 PM

Ah I see u 2 are at it again :D .

*Me grabs bag of popcorn and a looks for a nice comfy chair*

We all know, though, that with this new terrain system and now the fact that anyone can make terrain, that there might just be a whole lot more huge maps this time around, so its inevitable that their will be lots of vehicle mods. UT players may not like this because its not really UT, but then I suspect this new engine may attract a whole new audience - maybe the entire Tribes community will gravitate to a UT2k3 mod featuring vehicles :eek: :D :scratch: :dunno:

SoBeiT

06-29-2002, 06:08 PM

Jeeze Guys..enough already...

Welcome to UP TseTse..enjoy yourself here :)

Squirrelinabox

06-29-2002, 08:20 PM

IHopeToGod, see, you made a good point. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, I mind it when they want suggestions, but don't want people telling them an opinion that differs. I peronally don't like large maps, but I understand that some do. I posted some ideas of my own that may help large maps out, things like checkpoints and spawn point control points and such, but when somebody doesn't even care to listen to anything negative, it just irritates me. I know I get upset to easily, but oh well.

Infide

07-02-2002, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Squirrelinabox
IHopeToGod, see, you made a good point. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, I mind it when they want suggestions, but don't want people telling them an opinion that differs. I peronally don't like large maps, but I understand that some do. I posted some ideas of my own that may help large maps out, things like checkpoints and spawn point control points and such, but when somebody doesn't even care to listen to anything negative, it just irritates me. I know I get upset to easily, but oh well.

I agree with squirrel on helpful critisism. If you want to make steel you don't put iron ore in a warm room you put it in a blast furnace. I also agree with squirrel's take on large maps. Everytime a large map shows up on the playground people leave. So what would have been maybe a playable large map at 10 v 10 is now 5v5 with SO much ground to cover. FC's can hide forever. I don't like running around for 15 minutes trying to find the fc only to be sniped from WHO knows where.
I also don't know enough about ut23k. How many players can be in a game at the same time? I guess my 2 cents is, the larger a map the more people are needed to make it fun and interesting. There's only so much real estate a man, or squirrel, can cover.