Grant Us Elightenment oh Freakish One!

[LoPing]

How about some general map guidance, Freakish?

Looking at the reviews I see three main design flaws:
1 -- The map is just a spamfest (I HATE those myself, but that's the main type currently on the servers).
2 -- The map is just a hall/hall/hall maze.
3 -- The map is too open and there is too long between firefights
(ok, GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY:o )

Now I want to make good maps, and I'm willing to invest a lot of time in the map, but I want to ALSO :

1 -- Make the map look GOOD, there are a lot of butt-ugly maps out there.
2 -- Take the players to someplace SPECIFIC, give them some atmosphere. Novelties don't count, they are cute for about thirty seconds.
3 -- Have bots provide a good challenge (otherwise the reviewer's not going to have fun).

I have a map I'm working on, but I don't want to spend a month on it and have it tripped up by a major design flaw. Any words of wisdom?

[Squirrelinabox]

I know I am not freakish, but I may be able to provide a little light on your situation.

First off, you list reasons for bad GAMEPLAY at the beginning but then say you are working on making good ATMOSPHERE and botplay. These are two totally separate issues. IF you focus soley on how a map looks you are probably going to create a map that plays horribly. You should spend much more time worrying about layout/flow and other gameplay related issues.

I will list some problems/pluses with some maps for gameplay because it seems many don't understand what makes good gameplay. I am by no means saying I know exactly what I am doing, but I do know what maps are more fun than others and I have some idea why.

1) The too big/long problem you spoke of. Ezmerhim/RingOfFire/SnowBlind][ are all maps that fall to this problem. Yes, some people like these types of maps but many do not, and the ones that do not like them HATE them. You need to think about the FC. Sure other players may be able to transloc all around the map and get into the enemy base in SnowBlind][ but once you get the flag you are going to basically have to get lucky on your way back as you have to run ten miles with nothing covering you but an occasional rock. This is no good.

2) The spam maps. I hate them myself, some like them. Maps like Theatrum/Thorns/Fifa are spam maps. Each encourage spam in different ways. In Thorns and Fifa they are basically just huge open areas with no cover. Peopl are able to just constantly fire and fire until they hit something. Nobody can hide from random firings thus leading to a more LUCK type game. Theatrum is not a huge open area, though it has only ONE single way into and out of each base in the middle so everybody sits there firing rippers. It is almos impossible to score on these maps as well because you will get hit by random shots that are impossible to dodge.

3) I don't really understand your hall/hall/hall maze comment. If you are referring to room-corridor-room that is one thing, or if a map is too complicated that is another thing. If it is too complicated that is an obvious detriment to gameplay USUALLY, since a slight learning curve helps the replayability of maps, though too complicated of a map may prove to be not worth the effort.

4) Defese heavy maps. Spam maps and Large maps are somewhat defense heavy, making them long games that seem to never end. Incinerator/Boomerang are defense heavy maps that I actually enjoy so that may be bad examples. However, each map starts to get old when it is nearly impossible to score. In Incinerator there are many routes out of hte base, but it is almost impossible to make it to any of those routes. In Boomerang the defense can wait just outside the building and pick off just about everyone (fixing this in Boomerang][ :) ) Some defensive maps just don't work because it is so easy to defend and so hard to cap. Though these maps tend to encourange... or FORCE teamwork, the fact is teamwork doesn't exist enough to make flag carriers have to depend on a team backing htem up.

There are many little things such as item placement and spawning points that always affect the gameplay as well, but those are specific to any map and it is hard to make general impressions of how they should be done. You seem to be considered with getting a good review score and how to get as many points on that as possible, don't think about how a map will score on a review when you make a map. If you do, you are doomed. Think about how fun the map will be, how much you would want ot play the map.

[LoPing]

I re-edited my post to indicate that the non-play considerations that I want to consider were in addition to gameplay. They are restrictions that I place on myself that Freakish may not care about.

But back to just gameplay. I'm trying to think of some basic principles like:

1. -- There should be alternate paths of overall equal worth, i.e., one may be twice as long as the other, but in turn it is half as dangerous, so there is no one "right path".

2. -- The number of flag return routes should be no more than triple the recommended team size of the map, i.e., if you want nine players on each team then you want no more than three escape routes so that a flag carrier isn't going to just randomly evade his persuers.

---

Now if this is the wrong way to look at it maybe we should start a map developers' thread called "Why is this map fun?" You could look at 'Lava Giant' and say why it is fun:
(1) You have four different paths that let you collect different weapons. No one path will give you everything.
(2) A certain number of people are going to want to snipe, the map has an opportunity to do so.
(3) A flag carrier gets to grab the jumpboots and leap over the fort wall and down a cliff face to escape.
(4) It's just plain fun to toss your enemies into lava
etc.

[Squirrelinabox]

In all honesty I think you shouldn't have an approach to mapping with so many "rules" such as having so man flag routes for so many players. There are more exceptions to these rules than there are situations following the rules. Take my map boomerang for example. I thought the 3 different routes would be plenty, and having basically 4 ways into the base would be perfect for a fairly easy way of getting the flag out. Unfortunately I didn't realize that the outter area can control EVERYTHING. As a result, it encouraged people to sit out there instead of doing anything else. Many don't even try to cap because it is almost impossible since the entire other team is sitting a a single control point. Gateways][ suffers from the same problem. There are so many things that affect gameplay you just have to start seeing what works in what situations rather than a strict guidline.

[LoPing]

Sure, you have to break rules to make art, but you also have to know (or explore) the rules in order to break them.

[IHopeToGod]

I'm not going to list anything right now as I want to be extra brief but consider this:

Do you want your map to be popular online? If so u may have to cater to the lowest common denominator. And stay away from large maps because they just polarize people between those that hate them and those that love them

Or do you want it to have lots of replayability offline.

Its real easy to make a map with great flow online but balancing it with replayability offline can be a double-edged sword.

Making a good looking map is easy if u have artistic vision. Comes natural to some people while others have to pull their hair out to make something look good. U can always look at nice pictures to get an idea of what looks good of course..:)

As for bot pathing. In my opinion bots should be able to do anything a human player can do and go anywhere a human opponent can go......and should know more than the average human
:D

[Freakish]

I'm a little confused as to what you guys are talking about (besides general design theory), but I'll just throw some stuff out there anyways.

All I care about when I play a map is the gameplay. Looks are way secondary. Call me uncultured, whatever I don't care..it's how fun the map is that matters most. The appearance is icing on the cake. That said, all those nifty little categories in the review schema help keep that bias out of the review score by forcing me to look at those areas I normally don't pay attention to.

Milk is right..for public online play people just love the spam maps. When we're reviewing a map we're putting out a score so that people can see if they want to download it..consequently you might *think* spam maps get a little boost in score over regular maps because they're so popular (enjoyment factor gets a nudge because eeeeeeeeeveryone wants a spam map these days; BUT this is countered in that replayability is low..so many spam maps these days makes for few special ones..the thorns are classics).

That said, don't go out making spam maps just to hope for a score boost; most spam maps neglect visuals (and sometimes bots) and there's usually nothing special about item placement. You can excel in all of those areas in your map and then beat out the spam map scorewise. A recent high-scoring non-spam map was Poolstone..check that one out. The map is tight and fun to play while still being a beauty to look at and giving all players plenty of cover.

[Freakish]

Hmm..some common gameplay/layout flaws from maps..

1)Large maps are not intuitive and scare players. The bigger a map the more places you have to screw up in the layout. Whether it's an unwitting chokepoint in the middle of the map, not enough cover in a huge area, or too much accessible space so that flag carriers can never be found, you really really need to keep a tight leash on your large maps so that these things don't get out of control. Making a large map takes extra work because the map is automatically easy to learn and play..players need to find their way around it and for most, if it's too big or too tricky to find the enemy flag in the first few minutes then the map is no fun to them (first impressions..). Eh..and Ezsmerhim is next on my list to review. :rolleyes: Even against bots (unless you put them on Masterful or better), it's large maps generally aren't that great because you can usually outrun the bots or dodge around a structure a few times to get some distance on them. Bots don't translocate to keep up. So...large maps are very hard to have turn out well. Snowblind][ would be a great map if that open area in the middle just had a few more boulders strewn across it (like ctf-killgore, but less crowded). I'd really suggest you start with making a medium-sized map that plays great before trying to extend those capabilities to the difficult large maps.

2)Campability is a no-no unless campers have to remain exposed or have to head out to get more ammo. Boomerang really suffers from that one chokepoint everyone uses to control the map. The UNI flag rooms are shock-whore heaven with the catwalk that goes around the room. While all the players are very exposed, since the spawn so nearby and shock ammo is plentiful, many players fall victim to just sitting and camping their flag..it's really hard to take out 3 or 4 shock hos who are all lobbing combos at you before you grab the flag.

3)If you want the map to be popular online, don't try to enforce teamwork. b3cagematch2 is a spam map and you'd think the masses would love it except that the dual switch system to drop the cage is too much (isn't that sad??) for most players to grasp. It's really annoying to play that one and have to spend my time flitting back and forth between bases dropping cages so my dolt-team can grab the flag and then score. People often chalk campability or difficult maps up to "well, I want teamwork used!", but that's not gonna fly on the pubs. Players get frustrated if the game doesn't progress or if they have to travel a long distance only to be smacked down soon after touching the flag. If you want a map to be fun on a pub, design it with an every-man-for-himself mentality. Let players do what they want to do (some room for snipers, cover for flag carriers, easy to traverse for pursuers) and they'll probably spread themselves through the map so that it works.

I dunno..just a few thoughts..maybe more later when I've actually got time.

[LoPing]

Good comments. I'll keep them in mind for my next map. I'll probably throw it into beta at an early stage before I invest too much time in something that may not play well.

Do most maps cycle through Beta a few times? I want to make a map that people will enjoy playing, but I can't expect an unlimited effort by Beta testers.

[Sinnical]

Originally posted by LoPing
How about some general map guidance, Freakish?

Looking at the reviews I see three main design flaws:
1 -- The map is just a spamfest (I HATE those myself, but that's the main type currently on the servers).
2 -- The map is just a hall/hall/hall maze.
3 -- The map is too open and there is too long between firefights
(ok, GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY:o )

Now I want to make good maps, and I'm willing to invest a lot of time in the map, but I want to ALSO :

1 -- Make the map look GOOD, there are a lot of butt-ugly maps out there.
2 -- Take the players to someplace SPECIFIC, give them some atmosphere. Novelties don't count, they are cute for about thirty seconds.
3 -- Have bots provide a good challenge (otherwise the reviewer's not going to have fun).

I have a map I'm working on, but I don't want to spend a month on it and have it tripped up by a major design flaw. Any words of wisdom?

lo ping knows whats up. hall mazes suck, as do spam maps and noveltiy theme maps. we need more mappers like lo ping willing to invest their time in quality well playing good looking maps, more like the ones you would actually see come with the game. They come with the game cuz they are better than novelty maps and spam fests. they have better replay value, look cooler, and . . . yeah.

[LoPing]

Well I count my last map as a "miss", but it was fun to see it played online. I'll plow through on my next one and see what people think.

:type:

[blito3]

i thought i would get away scott free
with out a b3 spam map...press one button it will open
door...go in room that just opened press button...cage will rise
get flag....too easy....yup(should of made the openings smaller damn tranlocators...and spam spam and spam...and what are you having....hmmm spam good...

[MadMikey]

Blito, I like CageMatch. I even have a key bound to "OPEN THE CAGE!!!!!!"

Just in case I need it!

[ShirleyFT]

I think that whenever you have an open run, that's a sniperfest, you should also provide an alternative route that isn't friendly for snipes.

Asymmetrical maps can be great, but are hard to get right. November is a classic case. Some people think it's balanced and others... I think Urban Uprising is a nice asymmetric map. Maybe what you would call a medium/small size. Lots of weapons for the spammers, yet many nice routes for a good carrier, windows, ladders, multiple flagroom entrances. Unless the teams are offbalanced, I don't see many 6 - 0 wins. If you've scored, you've earned it.

I hate Super Marios Bros. maps where you're constantly falling off the edge into space. A dangerous crossing is one thing, but not every inch of the map. I'd like to concentrate on other things than walking a tightrope.

How active is a player on the map? Maps that are too big might make some people bored if they're not seeing a lot of action. On the other hand, spamfests are fun once in a while, although back to back they're murder. A couple weeks ago "Two boxes of Lava" and "wOOtabulus" were next to each other in the rotation - too much. If you can keep the players interested while letting them catch their breathe every now and then you might find balance. Actually, balance is what I'm talking about in all these categories. Balanced asymmetry? lol

[Freakish]

Originally posted by MadMikey
Blito, I like CageMatch.

I like it too, but only when regs or players who can learn are in the game..


In general, great thread..it's really interesting (and maybe helpful?) to see what people think makes for a good map and what qualities knock a map off the road to sweetness.

[megabitchgoddes]

So is this where we post our wish list to Santa Mapmaker? All I want for Xmas is a CTF map where the red side/blue side are clearly designated in all good-sized fighting areas. Nothing's more of a pisser than when I'm running with the flag and I spin around a couple times to fight off attackers - and after I've kicked all their butts, I wind up dying anyway because I can't tell which way home is anymore! DOHHH!!
:dunno: :hammer: :blah:

[IHopeToGod]

Its amazing how many people get lost on a map that the map maker thought was a simple design. Even maps where no two places are alike this can happen. This is generally because the person making the map is so used to seeing his design that it becomes intuitive to himself. Clearly designated color areas are not always necessary if the architecture is so vastly different that one could never mistake RedBase from Blue Base. But there must always be clearly defined areas so u know where u are. But to be honest unless the map is a straight line there will always be UT players bithching - "I'm lost this map sucks" . UT players just like simplicity :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

[MadMikey]

Just moving posts around, don't know if you guy saw this post by Kingster:

Originally posted by Kingster
Hmmm... Don't think I've ever posted in here before... Anyway...

In my cruising around on the net, I found CliffyB's site... Has some good stuff on it, but here is something that the mappers can use. Most of this stuff is probably common knowledge, but I think Cliffy wraps it all up nicely and covers some of the most important pieces - in ONE document.

Check it out here. (http://www.cliffyb.com/ut-ld-tips.htm)

[ShirleyFT]

Yes, MM, I read and saved that page. Great insights. The only thing I thought was funny about it is he suggests using 3DMax for outdoor scenes. HELLO! That program costs the big bucks and is only in a professionals toolbag. lol

LoPing, one thing I forgot to put down earlier, no matter how you build your map and no matter how you intended the play to flow, it just will not work out that way. Players will use it in ways you've never dreamed. Snipers will look for the high ground, runners will look for the least traveled path, and campers, well campers... You may have put in a rock to break up line of site at the ground level, while inadvertently building the perfect snipers nest for a spawnkiller.

All maps that are bound inside walls and valleys have been exploited, wallrunners, valley side runners. And you know these were not intended to be used this way, no ammo placement up there. Snipers and campers will find places you never thought anybody would want to go.

And runners... Just put a couple pairs of jump boots in a map and sit back and watch. You'll be amazed.

Also, flag drops, piston jumps, etc...

[IHopeToGod]

Although good for the most part some of what CliffyB says is questionnable and won't even apply to UT2k3 maps. If u make maps u have to try and anticipate all possible scenarios. That is why bot pathing is extremely important. If u play online enough u will know most tactics players use. U must assume that players can and will go anywhere in a map that the BSP allows. And that includes using Mutators which allow u to do things a player ordinarily could not.

[Freakish]

Originally posted by IHopeToGodThatsMilk
And that includes using Mutators which allow u to do things a player ordinarily could not.

You mean like strangelove and the hills in antbsarmada? hehe..hehehehehhe.hehehehhehehehehhe

[LoPing]

Originally posted by megabitchgoddes
So is this where we post our wish list to Santa Mapmaker? All I want for Xmas is a CTF map where the red side/blue side are clearly designated in all good-sized fighting areas. Nothing's more of a pisser than when I'm running with the flag and I spin around a couple times to fight off attackers - and after I've kicked all their butts, I wind up dying anyway because I can't tell which way home is anymore! DOHHH!!
:dunno: :hammer: :blah:

Hey that gives me an idea, map a map with little colored stripes on the floors leading you to the bases (kind of like in a hospital if you know what I mean).

I get lost and buy the farm on many new maps :rolleyes:

[IHopeToGod]

Originally posted by Freakish


You mean like strangelove and the hills in antbsarmada? hehe..hehehehehhe.hehehehhehehehehhe

Exactly! :D. Interesting u mention that because there was an invisible ceiling to prevent Flyers from going up there but it had to be removed because of massive bsp problems. And it would have taken tons of block actors to prevent it as well. U won't find such a flaw if it makes a reappearance in UT2K3 - Muhaaaaaaa!

U'll notice Domain does not have that particular flaw Although there is one mountain where u can sort of camp on top and retrieve ammo rather quickly :D