CTF-Helix comments can go here....

[Homeslice]

....for example Freakish, what did I do well and what didn't I do well? What else did people think of the map? Was it better than many others I've had....because I have some really bad ones for download at Nali City. Just checking. I like the Double Helix the best, but I'll keep at it and make sure I do better.

[HortonsWho]

Hey Homeslice,

I emailed you last night. A couple of things that, for me, push the map back to a "beta."

1) The bots are pretty brainless. I couldn't get them to leave the base. Mostly they just jumbled up at dead ends or ran around in circles, such as in the red base near that lift in the floor.

2) speaking of lifts, they don't work. In the blue base, the lift in the upper area was always stuck down, stuttering. The bots fell in and died so it was full of weapons. The same lift in the red base won't go down. There is constant sound when you stand by it but no movement. If I remember correctly wasn't there a lift in one of the lower corridors? It doesn't move either.

3) For online play, I'm not a fan of the automatic machine guns in flag bases this small. Heh-I just telefrag them and get rid of them anyway. And you've got two in one base and three in the other.

It's a nice rain effect outdoors... but some things need to be fixed.

[Squirrelinabox]

Homeslice, like Horton said this map seems more of a beta. I don't want to be too harsh on you but the map really isn't very good. I know I sound like a jerk now but sometimes it is better to hear the criticism straight out.

1) The rain outside has to go, or be modified somehow. It will slow all computers in an online game. It dropped my frames A LOT when it was just me, this will be maginified a bunch in such an open area where all the fighting will take place.
2) Like Horton said, the automatic guns suck, they can be telefragged and hinder gameplay (also uneven like Horton said 2 in one base 3 in other.)
3) The mountainy stuff should be fixed, the cones are a primitive way of trying to do it. It is better to spend some time to try and learn how to make mountains than to just throw some cones there. Look up vertex editing/landscaping/terrain tutorials.
4) The brushes connect VERY poorly. Learn the 2d editor. Once again, LEARN THE 2D EDITOR. Instead of rotating a rectangle to make a hallway connect high to low, use the 2d editor to make one. This way it won't be lobsided and you can make sure there aren't any holes in the ground or ceiling.
5) The lighting is poor. Just because there are coronas and lens flares doesn't make it good. Most of the light sources in your map should NOT use coronas because they look funny. The lazer beam things just inside each base need to give off some colored light, and the lamp in the same room needs to give off much less. Look up tutorials on lighting, you usually (not always) want a light source to have one light with small radius (around 10 depending) and high brightness (above 60 probably) and then another light close to that one with bigger radius (20 or more) and way less brightness (less that 30). This way the room will be lit everywhere a little bit but it will look like the lamp is giving it off since it will be much brighter near it.
6) Some weapons are misplaced and such. For example the blue base has no rl the red base does. The armor in one of the bases floats over the lift instead of either dropping with it, or not be on the lift.

There are really a bunch more things that need some work. I don't want to sound like an ass telling you all this but I wish somebody had told me straight that my early maps SUCKED and why. The key is the why. Don't worry that it isn't a great map, learn what worked and didn't and what you can do to fix the problems. Keep plugging away and you will get it!

[Homeslice]

Well, look, we all can't be l33t, can we? I've in the past tried adding more pathnodes in a CTF map, but the bots still suck. There is too a rl in the blue base, what are you talking about?! The lifts aren't actual textured objects, which is why the weapons stay in the air. I told you I TRIED to use the terrain brush (someone didn't listen), but it messed up my map completely....had to delete those mountains. The rain was part of my original idea! Original idea, dammit! Look, the cannons were essential too, to add to the fun, which I could tell you guys didn't have upon playing this. Those lifts that go down into dangerous liquids are called "traps." None of the lifts seemed to give me trouble, it's odd that it did for you. Look, this was my hardest effort ever, but I guess a review on it would be real low. Keep this map on the site....do not eject it! I forbid you to. I've downloaded crappier maps than mine, and you guys say nothing about them.

It's just not right, is the point I am making. I tried hard, and this is better than the first batch of maps that I've made. What am I to do now?

[blito3]

welcome to the world of the map maker homeslice
oh whoa.....

[Freakish]

I pretty much agree with everything that's been said in here. Squirrelinabox has really progressed in his mapmaking..he can now balance eye-candy and gameplay pretty well. Unfortunately, right now your map has neither.

I'd say tackle gameplay first.
Figure out how to make the lifts work,

how to make the bots do the basics without getting stuck (and I would tell them to avoid the jump boots..they grab the boots, then go left for more ammo then try to go into the cave on the left but since they have boots they end up on the cave roof and get stuck there forever).

Clean up the corridors, do what Squirrel said so you can get rid of those annoying overlapping sections at the top and bottom of the tunnels.

Definitely get rid of all the teamguns..the only place I don't mind them so much is in a spawn room for CTF..but even then they can be telefragged..

The trap under the armor..it will be just an annoyance..traps generally don't do much for gameplay (some maps like CTF-Deathtrap use them pretty well), so you can take it out. If you really want a trap, put it under the shield belt in the middle of the map or something (I realize there is no shield belt in the middle of the map..this is just an example).

Try expanding passages to and from the flag room..small claustrophobic passages just encourage spamming.

Small thing..the sniper positions don't give a very good viewpoint of the courtyard..

So..gameplaywise: fix bots, fix any lifts, fix tunnel/hallway transitions, expand all small passages (in base and catwalks in central cavern), and get rid of those teamguns.



Artistically, work on the lights, though it's good that you're playing with them. Learn terrain..like Squirrel said, the cones look baaaaad.. Learn how to break up the architecture..right now you've got boxes and hallways..learn how to add trim, slanted walls, etc.



Things I liked: the rain looked nice, and I liked the swirly water patterns on the courtyard floors, I could tell you were trying to put in details by putting in the watery skylights, and the one skylight with the hole letting rain through. Unfortunately, the unbroken skylight should be raised or something; it didn't look realistic as a panel on the ceiling. For symmetry, you should probably raise the one with the hole in it too. With respect to the rain though..you'll need to tone it down so that gameplay doesn't suffer during fights. :(

The lights in the courtyards fit well with everything..though I don't remember if they gave off light properly or not.

In the caves, the idea of broken stairs is a good one; but not in those settings..you need to give players a)more room to move and b)more ways up. ALWAYS leave more than one route to something..unless it's some special powerup like the redeemer or shield belt. So, ideally you should have two ways through the cave in the middle of the map.

The spiderwebs on the cave ceiling were nice, and the cones were much better suited to the cave (like stalactites), but you'd still be better off learning how to do terrain and make the cave less boxy. Again, this comes after you get a map with good gameplay going.



You've got a lot of work to do..but keep at it and things will steadily improve!

[Freakish]

Oops..didn't see your response.

Ok..first off..maps uploaded here won't get pulled because some people think they suck. So your map is safe..

Second, the suggestions in here are just suggestions. They're not attacks on you and they're all meant to give you guidance on how to improve your mapmaking skills. They're what you need to begin making kickass maps down the road.

But, learning to map is a progression..first you learn how to make fun maps and then you learn how to add all the things that make a map beautiful.


It's true that this map is a noticeable improvement over Lighthouses, and the fact that it's an improvement should give you heart; you ARE learning and you've got results to show. But, you've still got a ways to go toward making a fun map and quite a bit farther to a beautiful map.

I'm willing to bet that once you get a few more basic skills down, your maps will beging coming out much better. After all, gameplay is the most important aspect and appearance is just icing on the cake.

The reason I singled out this map when I saw that you had uploaded it is that a)you're an active mapper and b)I felt you could benefit from advice the other mappers and players here have to offer. I never said things here would be sugar-coated, but I think they're much more constructive than the comments you've gotten in certain other threads NOT here. Around here, unless someone asks for thoughts on a map that sucks, we'll probably just ignore it. But, people who remain active around here always get feedback when they release new maps..and if they post betas they get feedback while still in the creation phase.

I'd suggest that you start a new map and routintely post betas here..get help along the way and see how it comes out.

[SoBeiT]

No one here is looking to insult you in any way Homeslice. Mappers ask for feed back to improve their maps, to make that kickass map, like Freakish said. Please don't take this as an insult about you personally..this is about a creation your working on and the end result. We want you to succeed as much as you want it..really. We are after all, only doing what you asked of us. I can't even imagine the time and thought making a map takes. Since YOU can..go for the best it can be!

[HortonsWho]

Originally posted by Homeslice
what did I do well and what didn't I do well?

Yeah-- don't take it personally. You asked for feedback. As Freakish said, there are some improvements over your past work. There is just much to be done before this map is playable. Keep at it and you will improve.


And please don't yell at the people you asked for feedback from, OK? There is a great bunch of helpful folk here, many are great map designers. If you asked for help but really only want praise, we can't help you. We can offer constructive criticism to those who are looking for honest help and feedback.

Keep at it. :)

[Squirrelinabox]

Okay homeslice, just calm down, take a deep breath, and relax. We all don't hate you, we just have some suggestions about your map. I was wrong about the rocket launchers, for some reason one doesn't show once in awhile in one of the bases, don't know why but it usually IS there. About the mountains, why did they not work when you tried it? The rain, it isn't too original since it has been done but it hasn't been done in a large open area because it doesn't work. In a large, high traffic area everybody's machine is going to be bogged down a bit, add the rain to that and it will be hell on just about everyones machine. Somehow hide the view of some rain/mountains by separating it all by a building in the middle or something, that way a player can't see all the action and rain at once. The cannons make seem like a neat idea but they usually kill gameplay especially in a flag room. I am not attacking you, but your map needs a lot of work. Just because you spent a lot of time on it doesn't mean that everybody has to say it is perfect when you ask their opinion. Take our suggestions to heart and keep improving.

[Homeslice]

So sorry if I offended any of you with my getting so pissed off. I guess I just wanted for once a map with a good review. I won't get it this way though.

There WAS a rl missing in the red base....I'm so stupid, I thought I put it there! I was wrong. There is a shield belt in the midsection, however. How can I use the terrain brush in a way that it won't screw up my map?

Maybe, if you want, I can work a bit more with the map and try to fix some things up, like the bots, for example. Maybe that'd make things better. I'm sorry I was so angry at you guys. I hope I can be forgiven.

[blito3]

as for terrain.....start with a small box
8*8 in the terrain grid
one of my maps hellsmells uses a group of terrain grids
put together
u can flip them and x y and z once placed u can alter them
by moving the lines at the points
just practice
put a player start then run around and look
holes will appear because one of your grid points are out of wack
by just a smidge
have fun

[uncledumpy]

Hi Homeslice,

Take this feedback with a grain of salt. Everyone here on the forums means well. :)

Personally, I go for game play, and to hell with looks! :moon: I haven’t even used a 2D editor yet. uncledumpy=no talent :blah: :D

There’s a bundle of talent here at the forums. If you have questions.. Just ask. You’ll either get an answer or get pointed to a tutorial with how to do something similar.

Laters,
MIFs{A$$}

[Homeslice]

Would you like me to work on the bots in this map, add the rl in the red base and resend this, or is it ok now? Let me know please. :moon:

[HortonsWho]

Well-- the lifts still don't work so I fix those... Sure fix what youy can and we'll take a look.

[Freakish]

and while you're in the process of improving, submitting, modifying, etc..upload it as a beta and maybe put a bx at the end of the name..

like

CTF-Helixb12
CTF-Helixb21
CTF-Helixb24...

[Homeslice]

....but if this beta version is better than the original, can you replace the older version with the better version, and name that the original file of CTF-Helix? Thanks.

[Freakish]

Once you're sure you've got a final version, we can get the old version replaced by the new one. :)

[Homeslice]

What else did other people like and not like about this map, as it is right now?

[blito3]

hmmmm........no beer in the map
but...i digress
i care what people say about my maps
but then again.....i never listen
i am like the monkey
see no evil ...hear no evil....speak no evil
no problem.......
just blistfully work on my next creation
have fun..unless your the most untalented map maker
of all time...then well...there is allways russian rulette