Paying for Map Reviews

[axiom82]

Some of the Unreal Playground Reviewers are tired of handing out free reviews. Maybe we can charge $1.00 per review and consider it a mapper's donation. Look in the review queue, there's 50 bucks uncollected!

As many of you might know, it isn't easy to write reviews. It takes a few hours to get each one ready. Therefore, $1.00 would be a small and considerable payment for all mappers who make such a lengthy task for the reviewers here at Unreal Playground. Inclusively, this new system will help minimize the review queue so that we can *FINALLY* gain some control over the queue. See, it solves two major problems! :)

[King Mango]

How about the people who already pay twenty a month? :D

Do we get free reviews? And should we get priority placement? And it damn sure better add ten points to my review! :D

Hmmm that'a a sketchy idea, and I don't know yet how to vote. I think the current practice of intial evaluation being less than fifty is a good idea, it's a bit harsh, but charging a dollar, while having the potential to reduce the review queue, it could also deter from quality maps getting submitted. Unless I see something in the screenshot or readme, I rely on the review to determine whether or not a map is worth the time to dl, unzip and install. The more maps reviewed, I think the healthier it would be for the playground database....

Thought provoking, but I am initally against even though I am holding back my vote to give it more thought and discussion in this thread.

Certainly I am for finding ways to sustain the Playground.

[Squirrelinabox]

No offense, but if this were implemented, it could ruin this place for many mappers.

I would not pay for a review, and in all honesty, it kind of pisses me off to think of somebody asking for money to review a map.

I already donate monthly here, and plan on upping it when I can... but even if I didn't donate, I think asking for money for each review is a HUGE turn off to this place.

Why not charge for downloads then? Why not charge to play on the server? Maybe charge per post?

UP won't survive if it starts limiting features based on "payments". UP needs money, but making people pay for things that should be free (and are free nearly EVERYWHERE else) is a VERY bad idea.

[BIG-MICK]

I have got to say I agree with SIAB ...It will put people off...And more than likely cause negative comments towards UP from other review sites!......PS do people who get poor reviews get a refund! :loopy:......

[phalanx]

hmm i dunno if this would work
i dont think it would cause bad comments though many review sites look UP to this place

the review queue is 4 months behind :eek:

[Scourgem]

I think that's a bad idea, Axiom - that would basically force people who want their maps reviewed to set up PayPal accounts or the like, which again means that kids would get no reviews at all. I would hate to do that, what with the huge amount of young mappers (many of whom are great mappers, too!)

Also, one can get free reviews elsewhere on the net, so people would probably opt to go there instead.

[Fearless]

Give money for something that should be written with passion :weird: ? Think about it...

[Lord_Simeon]

Good idea in theory, but in practice it would be bad.
It would paint UP with an elitist brush, asking for money for reviews.
I can see your point mate, UP needs moola, and good fundraising ideas are not to be dismissed instantly, but create a good discussion, like this one.
Luckily, there are people like us, who are willing to sacrifice time to play test and write up long reviews for people we've never met, or will do.
It's a community thing, we're part of this community, and this is a way we comtribute.
I often thought, through may reviews, that the map author should at least be a part of UP, as at least half of the 36 reviews i've done, have been from people i've never even heard of, and have 0 posts at UP.
But on the other hand, there have been a lot of great maps that i would not have otherwise played if not for having reviewed them.

2c

[phalanx]

well said LS
yes reviewing takes more time then you think, i am a reviewer at UMR (http://www.umr.unrealism.com) so i know what its like myself.
as UP is one of the major map sites if this idea went ahead ppl would look elsewhere for reviews
no reviews = no maps
no maps = no comunity
no community = no money
no money = no servers

[Spiff]

We have had several more subscriptions with this recent fundraiser and things are looking UP.

Intended pun?

anyway
The banner adds thing sounds like a good idea in my oppinion.

[axiom82]

I suppose my idea is a utopian concept. Who would dare pay 1 dollar for a review even if it takes me three hours to write it? If I was on minimum wage salary, that would already be roughly 20 dollars. People think it's ultimately entertaining to review everyone's map, but maybe I am not asking for mappers to pay, maybe I just want some return for my reviews.

I agree, this is a bad idea after reading your posts. But, I do think the reviewers need some incentives to keep reviewing. Throw a dog a bone...maybe just giving me a staff profile would help.

Either way, I'll keep thinking of fundraising ideas.

[Squirrelinabox]

Maybe mappers should then ask for a dollar for every server that uses the map? Oh wait, better yet, ask every person who plays a map to pay a dollar for every game they play on it...

If you don't like reviewing, then don't review. I don't review because I don't think I could keep my reviews "politically correct" enough. I did one here just to try it out, but I don't think I could do it without coming off too harsh for most people... so I decided not to review.

You want something back for your reviews? You are getting the respect and reckognition of being a reviewer here. You get to know people are reading your reviews and downloading or not downloading based on your reviews. You are giving mappers some feedback they can use to get better.

The admins here aren't making any money off their efforts (hell some are losing money)... which to be honest, reviewing pales in comparison.

I won't comment on this anymore, cuz I am really holding back (hard to imagine huh?) and don't want to get this out of hand.

[Lord_Simeon]

I think every map that scores a sub-20 score, the author should have to donate $5. :evil:

[Spiff]

I think every map that scores a sub-20 score, the author should have to donate $5. :evil:

Then its a shame we no longer find out whose maps get under 20. Damn new review scheme...

[Scourgem]

I think every map that scores a sub-20 score, the author should have to donate $5. :evil:Heheh, yup... and perhaps an additional $5 for each included MyLevel.* file, ESR ammo and the like. Some maps out there could turn out... pricey. :evil:

[Lord_Simeon]

$5 for each included MyLevel
LMAO
Yeah, i've overwritten sooo many like this.

[axiom82]

By my own will, I have removed the original contents of this post. It isn't within my intentions to damage the reputation of Unreal Playground. In my life, I'm finding it hard to withdraw from an attack based on my person's dignity but soon maybe I will find a proper solution to this hardship. I am a very respectable person and I hope everyone enjoys my maps and respects my authority on rating maps as I have been learning the art of making maps since February of 2000. I want to help this community prosper and I hope in the future all who read this will not judge me in a harsh manner in regards to my ideas and suggestions.

[Lord_Simeon]

SIAB, Axiom is only trying to think of ways that benifit the community.
Although not a great idea, it is an idea.
I personally think its great that he loves this site so much, he is thinking about other ways to raise revenue besides subsribing.

and on a lighter note.... :D

[Squirrelinabox]

When someone says, "I am really holding back and I don't want this to get out of hand", it really means..."Hey, I want you to know I'm ****ing with you and I'd like this to get out of hand". Do you think I am cool with that kind of behavior!? Everyone with half a brain sees the intention in your words.

You better hold back...Your attitude is not justified. You should test your power before speaking so combatively. Many people would crush you in the real world for your egocentric behavior. This post involves supporting the community, so keep your bull**** at home and respect or avoid my ideas!

Get it hero! Respect or Avoid me, but NEVER DISRESPECT ME! NEVER MAKE SARCASMS ABOUT ME! IN FACT, DON'T POST WHERE I POST! Yes, I am pissed off at this kid! I have every right to be. So please don't tell me to relax when he is the one who needs the ****ing prozac! This isn't the first time he has acted like a ****face anyway. God damn instigator!

I'm so ****ing tired of people like this kid. They make everyone a victim and usually it's because they have been victimized.


:eek:
Heh, check your pm's please. You will see what I was holding back and why I chose not to post it here. Oh and thanks for the personal attacks... good to see nothing has changed around here :)

[axiom82]

By my own will, I have removed the original contents of this post. It isn't within my intentions to damage the reputation of Unreal Playground. In my life, I'm finding it hard to withdraw from an attack based on my person's dignity but soon maybe I will find a proper solution to this hardship. I am a very respectable person and I hope everyone enjoys my maps and respects my authority on rating maps as I have been learning the art of making maps since February of 2000. I want to help this community prosper and I hope in the future all who read this will not judge me in a harsh manner in regards to my ideas and suggestions.

[Mad_Monarch]

Greetings, new to the boards I am, but I found this post quite intriguing.

Coming up with fundraising idea's for one is a godly thing to do, kudos to those who come up with ANY ideas what-so-ever, Proud you all should be for any ideas mentioned that might benefit the site. Squirrel, it seems to me you need to realize that with good ideas always come bad, you can not avoid this, Biased Opinions such as yours are looked down upon across an entire thing called the web. Critisize but do not castrate an idea because you think it may or may not bring down an economically starved website.

The idea of forum charges to me would indeed be a problem for the young mappers that have a passion for design. Having to pay for a person to critisize a work of art is quite underminding to me. I support the idea but instead of making mandatory donations because reviews are behind, Unless there are already, It seems to me measures need to be implemented to "Weed" out those maps that would seem fit not to be distributed. Perhaps a 5 reviewer vote when reviewing a map? to decide if it is worthy enough to be places amongst the rest.

This is all my mind is allowing me to........... .....

(My comments end there, my mind went blank)

[Freakish]

Let's try to keep this civil..

[Scourgem]

Welcome Monarch... please don't take this thread as an example of what our community is like. :p

We already have a system for 'weeding out' low quality maps - if you take a look at the UT/UT2003 review forums, you will see a bunch of 'Not Reviewed' threads - these are maps that were taken out of the queue because of low/mediocre quality, errors etc.

Back to Spargo's plan to punish the sub-20 maps... maybe additional $ for writing the readme in all caps? :evil:

[Lord_Simeon]

no screenshots - $1
One to three big boxes and a light - $5 (extra $1 for each additional 512x cube)
Stairs with the textures un-aligned - $2
Rooms with the same texture on the walls, floor and ceiling - $5

:evil:

[King Mango]

Bots running into the wall at the bottom of lifts with no pathing... $$
bots that grab the flag then run to the nearest defense point in the enemy base and stand there... $$
Hallways with more than 1024 dimension along one surface in either x or y, $$
Lifts that are left bump open timed $$
Invisible death $$
More than one deemer $$ per each

I owe forty bucks on my first map...

[Lord_Simeon]

Lifts that are left bump open timed
LOL
Yeah, i probably owe a few $$$ too.

[Scourgem]

Wanna be a true supporter? Next map contest: Make the most "contributive" map. :evil:

/me starts subtracting 512x512x512 cubes and painting all surfaces pink.

[axiom82]

I will say though on the new site there will be areas for staff profiles and such. We just didn't want to spend any time doing this for the existing site since it will be going away soon. I would rather we put all our effort into what is to come :)

I apologize for being selfish HogMan. I don't need a profile to keep reviewing...I just need some positive support from my reviews. I honestly haven't heard anything positive lol. Am I doing okay?

[King Mango]

hehe. Yeah we make a "shopping list" whoever has the highest total wins. Then the total is split among the other contestants, and they aNte up. This could actually be a fun idea to really implement. Only make the shopping list good stuff

Lift jumps: one dollar base... addtional dollar for every 128 units over 512 you get au natural, (no boots, hammer assist etc...)
Teleporters... Five dollars if none used, -one buck for each pair employed
Custom meshes, one dollar for each individual mesh design
Slope dodges-One buck for each
Z axis kinda hard to tally that one, a buck for each atrium that has more than one level?
Alternate paths, a buck for each alt route the bots actually take..

etc...

[Freakish]

I apologize for being selfish HogMan. I don't need a profile to keep reviewing...I just need some positive support from my reviews. I honestly haven't heard anything positive lol. Am I doing okay?

LOL..with most things you only get feedback when somebody takes issue with it. :D

[evil_blue_dude]

Custom meshes, one dollar for each individual mesh design


LOL! those woth meshmaker would OWN all those that dont.

(200+ meshes)

[BIG-MICK]

LOL
Yeah, i probably owe a few $$$ too.
It would make me Frigging! Bankrupt! :eek:

[Kingster]

Any reviews done by any of our reviewers are good. If we had an issue with a review, we'd pull it and kick it back to you guys.

As far as paying for reviews, Hoggy said it best. I, however, am intrigued by the possibility of priority queueing for the subscribers. Might have to kick this around.

[Squirrelinabox]

As awesome as it would be for me (and other subscribers) to have our reviews given higher priority... I really dislike that idea. We don't want to alienate those that don't subscribe. Sure, we may get a little more money, and maybe the subscribers would be a little happier... but I fear it would scare so many people off that it wouldn't be near worth it.

I personally think you guys should stay away from given priorities to subscribers... don't make it some sort of "elitist" club type thing. I know you aren't trying to do it, but if you guys give too much priority to subscribers... it could become somewhat "elitist".

Things like offering webspace, email addresses, maybe if you ever have ads, give the subscribers a non ad ability... things like that are great because they are just added features, "benefits" of subscribing. Giving a subscriber webspace doesn't hurt a non subscriber. Reviewing a subscriber's map before a non subscriber's does hurt the non subscriber.

Just my opinion of course.

[King Mango]

it's armageddon... I agree with the Squirrel.... :weird:

On further reflection, perhaps one or two reviewers who take care of subscribers only, may be an alternative...

[phalanx]

that might work
but it would just make the review queue split into 2 with one rediculously long although it might not
i would say yes to that idea as a trial

[sharpfish]

Sorry for bring this thread baack up, I found it very interesting though. I haven`t taken offence at the idea of mappers `paying` a small fee, especially if it could help the BEST unreal site on the net.

I can see how a review can encourage mappers (or totally piss on their chips) and in general help create a community of creators and critics (I don`t mean critics in the bad sense). And yes, reviewing a map, any map especially when there is a backlog such as UPs must be a frustrating task when the site is under pressure. However, from a mappers point of view the time that has gone into a review pales in comparison to most `decent` levels.... 3 hours? I`ve just spent every day of the last 3 weeks sat here for upto 20 hours a day MAPPING - finishing mindgames and then starting my new xmas map... Why do I do this sad, geeky routine?? COS I F***ING LOVE IT!

How about every map that gets over 85% *gets* the mapper $1 from the downloaders and some of this goes to UP ;)

Seriously I would never ask to be paid for a review, a map or even the games I am programming (unless I was doing it pro of course), because expectations would be put onto a kind of `artform` - the same with reviews.. how accurate would they be if the reviewer KNEW the mapper had paid cash to get the map reviewed/sped up the queue? If the map was a 50% would the reviewer add 10% on out of a sense of duty?

I know it was just an idea, so no harm done Axiom - it would just send people away from the site which would be worse.

I`m not 100% up on the problems with UP at the moment as I only `pop by` every few months when I`m mapping - but MAPS are the life blood of a review site, Just like Nali City when it was back on PU - every sunday I used to get a `cuppa` and sit down and read the latest reviews to pick up tips - back before the first UT , usualy QA petes reviews were my favourite. The point there is that the reviewer got some `recognition` for his sterling work with reviews ( I think T-Wrecks has done a great job on the CBP map reviews @ NC even though I can barely stand the place) the same way mappers (who also put a lot into their work) only get the `reward` of knowing someone else is viewing it, playing it etc.

The problem with UP`s review queue I think is that virtually EVERY MAP submitted is put into the review queue by the authors cos its a natural instinct. I personally held back from putting Dom and Dm versions of 2 of my previously reviewed maps into the queue as I knew all I needed from the original reviews. If some mappers had more restraint on what they submitted for reviews the queue may get smaller. This can cause problems for mappers too.. for instance do I take Mindgames out of the review queue so that I can submit my XMAS map to get it (hopefully) reviewed before XMAS (thus more people know about it and may want to d/l it before it`s `out of date`) as we can only submit one map at a time it may be a good `PR` choice from my point of view.

Sorry - off track there.

If it`s a bandwidth problem at UP then stop HOSTING maps that score below 50% or whatever, especially if it can be seen they are just `cubes with a light` type maps. This is not elitest, this is about clearing up a lot of learner style maps that could be wasting UPS money.

I hope that came across right, I don`t mean offence to anyone, and maybe a map of mine will be one of those `binned ones` in the future, but there are so many files out there that it`s kind of ridiculous. And storage costs.

As for Axiom (and other reviewers) getting some `reward` I think they should get more recognition, ultimately I think the mapper (if it is a good mapper) has invested far more time in to the process, but then it is the mapper who gets his map `well known` - the reviewer has nothing to do with the map so I can see the point that his time goes unrewarded mostly. Maybe at least put a `review rating` system in, and a `review of the month` award - this is to recognise the talents of the reviewer, his technical understanding of the map, his colourful, interesting writing style etc.. all the things that mappers try to convey with their efforts. The reviewers *may* then feel more incentive to want to review, ok it`s not a big or important recognition but something along those lines. The reviewers on ALL sites do a great job, I think most if not all do it because they LOVE doing it.

Just remember though Axiom came up with this IDEA for UP not for his own gains, if anyone should `pay` it should be the person who gets MAXIMUM enjoyment and MINIMUM workload.. whos that? THE PLAYERS!

Sharpfish